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Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
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TheCell Offline
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Post: #1
Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
......
(This post was last modified: 05-05-2010 10:43 PM by TheCell.)
01-23-2010 09:40 PM
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BobBoyce Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
Good luck with that one... LOL

The much faster flame speed of higher quality gas means that
the mass of the piston assembly has LESS time to respond to
the pressure pulse. Hence, LOWER quality gas will give higher
indicated peaks on your setup. You really need to learn about
the correct gas quality you should be aiming for. Kudos for the
attempt however.

Bob Boyce
01-24-2010 06:53 AM
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TheCell Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
......
(This post was last modified: 05-05-2010 10:44 PM by TheCell.)
01-24-2010 03:08 PM
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ke6gwf Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
(01-23-2010 09:40 PM)TheCell Wrote:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPjTx0iUytg

This is open source...We developed it and Give it too this forum for use.

If you would like the specs on it email us and we will send to you.

Bob@TheCell.net

It accurately tells you how strong your gas is. And it is repeatable by anyone.

God Bless,

Yes Yes Yes!
You may have deleted my comments on your videos, but I accidentally found this! Smile


OK, in order for this test to be accurate and repeatable, we need to know a few parameters.

1. What is the diameter of the cylinder?
2. What is the diameter of the rod?
3.what is the mass of the piston/rod/weight assm
4. what is the cylinder material and finish (needed to calculate friction and stick/slip)
5. What type of piston/rod seals and bearing rings
6. What material piston/rod seals and bearing rings
7. What type of lubrication was used in the cylinder and/or used on the seals when it was assembled
8. How much use has the cylinder had
9. How much friction is there on the weight slide?
10. What are the clearances between the o-ring/seal and the seal groove on the rod and piston seals
11. How much play is in the cylinder mount
12. How much mass is the cylinder solidly mounted to?

These factors are needed to find out how much force it takes to begin the piston moving, and then how much is needed to continue it moving.

If any of you have ever tried to move an air/hydraulic cylinder by hand, you will remember that there is a break-free force required before it will begin to move. Before it reaches that force, how much play is there to allow the seals to move in the slots, how much force is absorbed by the flexion of the rubber, etc. Then, the type of material the seals and bearings are made out of will affect their stickiness as will any lube that may or may not be in there.


Now, gaseous accuracy;

a. Pressure of gas in hose
b. flow rate of gas through hose
c. flow rate through Q/C fitting
d. volume of cylinder at test position
d#2. temperature of the gas
d#3. temperature of the cylinder
d#4. ambient air temperature

OK we have gas in the cylinder (assumption being it's a known quantity or at least repeatable which is going to depend on temperature and relative temperature controlling gas density), and we remove the hose.

e. flow rate through the cylinder fitting releasing pressurized gas
f. amount of time between removing hose and applying flame
g. ambient air currents causing delay or acceleration of flame entering cylinder

(Whump!) OK, the cylinder gets lit. Now since the volume is so small for that cylinder, a fraction of a second of time difference will make a large difference in percentage escaping.

h. what's flowrate of the cylinder fitting under explosive expansion conditions
i. what's the cylinder volume on the opposite end of the cylinder in test position
j. what's the cylinder fitting flow rate on the opposite end of the cylinder
k. what's the mass of the entire moving assembly
l. what's the mass of the entire "stationary" assembly
m. what's the temperature of cylinder body
n. what is the temperature of the rod
o. what is the temperature of the piston
p. what is the temperature of the seals
q. what is the temperature of the slide for the weight
r. what is the temperature of the lube

Obviously temperature is going to affect friction, so each test is going to be slightly different as things warm up. The flow through the fittings is going to lose quite a bit of pressure on one side, and create a vacuum on the other.

Then we get to interpretation.
Is a higher quality gas going to burn faster?
Does a faster burn move the cylinder more or less?
If it detonates fast enough, the cylinder/weight isn't going to have time to move, and the walls of the cylinder will expand until the pressure exits through the hole and pressure equalizes. The movement is after the detonation, from the residual pressure as inertia is overcome "slowly".
You may not believe me, but I have seen large hydraulic cylinders expand like a snake swallowing a mouse when they got hit with pressure spikes. That air cylinder ain't gonna be near as thick walled.

One of the common concerns given for running hydrogen in gas engines is the timing.
Gasoline burns slow and dirty. It's a "flame front" moving across it. It gradually increases pressure, and keeps it up for a while. Hydrogen goes oh-so-fast, and doesn't keep adding heat and pressure.

I know I have gone to excess, but I wanted to illustrate a portion of the unknown variables that prevent this from being an accurate test. I am sure I forgot some too!
If there was a single unit kept in a temp controlled environment with enough time for temperature equalization after each shot it might be close, but this just goes to show how some people do things and try to make it sound like it's scientific.

(disclaimer: I do not know the sure answer on the interpretation part since I have not tried it or run the numbers, the rest I am confident about!)


Keep on blowing stuff up, you'll get it right eventually,
Ben~
(01-24-2010 03:08 PM)TheCell Wrote:  ...
Remember Bob, that's what one of my degrees is in...

Ask for a refund...

Quote:That would be like trying to say, that a car speeding at 30 MPH and hitting a wall with an impact force gauge reading say 1000 lbs/square inch of force ...would not register anything, or the same, if the car was at 100 MPH. NOT!

Ok, what is the wall material and construction?
If you hit some types of walls at 30 mph, it is going to stop you, whereas if you hit the same wall at 100 mph it will disintegrate the wall and you will keep going.
There are other variables you are missing.

Oh, oops, I forgot to include s. elasticity curve of cylinder wall!
The harder the shock, the more the wall is going to expand, and the less the piston is going to move.

Quote:I won't get into the normal BS debate with you,

Oh! But they are so fun and revealing!

Quote:...Suffice it to say, The problem with your last statement is we ran the same identical test with one of the original cells...the one YOU signed...and the results were identical. We ran a series of 80 tests on each with a repeatable results on each. This included the old style controller as well as our new much more efficient design...Both results in that were identical as well. We ran Both KOH and NAOH, and multiple combinations (mixes) of both...the results between the cells were identical.

The "old" cells and the newer Cells....both test results are available on youtube for all to see.


Hmm, Bob "signed" a cell? Would that be one that he had designed maybe? Hmmm...

One of the videos (which you apparently just removed this week) showed you doing several tests in a row, and on one of them it showed a different result!

Oh, and the fact that you ran the test on so many different styles and combinations of cells and controllers and chemistries and got the same results points me to an unreliable test setup. There should be a difference between gas quality if your claims about The Cell are accurate!


Ferreting out "stuff" since 1970-something,
Ben~
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2010 08:19 PM by ke6gwf.)
04-21-2010 08:00 PM
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BobBoyce Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
Yes, and I autographed several cells for customers as well. That is probably where he was able to snag my signature for the forged NDA that he claims that I had signed.

Unfortunately, the cells that I had autographed, while they were of my cell design - and the plates were processed according to my procedures, they had been manufactured after he started using his seriously flawed double-sided foam tape manufacturing method. The cells that were hand assembled and manufactured prior to the addition of the foam tape are now very rare indeed. Only a limited number of those ever made it out the door for dealer testing, and it was the results from those cells that had convinced many of the dealers that the product was so good. Unfortunately, in his attempt to ramp up production, Potchen introduced the foam tape, which reacted and contaminated the cells that were made with it. The rest is history, as he scrambled to find solutions that did not involve doing away with the foam tape. His attempted "solutions" increased contamination, making a bad situation even worst. All he had to do was admit fault and correct the manufacturing process, but his pride would not allow him to admit that he had caused the problems in the first place. He chose to blame it all upon me and my plate processing method instead. The exact same plate processing method I might add, that has worked - and continues to work so well, for everyone else building cells of my design.

Bob Boyce
04-22-2010 02:50 AM
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ke6gwf Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
To avoid cluttering up the other threads I'll put this here, I ran across this too:

http://www.fuel-saver.org/Thread-Has-any...4#pid31454

Looks like his wording and such. Just thought I''d pass it on to you!

Ben~
04-22-2010 11:34 AM
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BobBoyce Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
Good catch Ben, that certainly was NOT me. I replied there as well. Potchen did a lot of that sort of crap.

Bob Boyce
04-22-2010 01:26 PM
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Llew Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
Hi Bob,
I hate to show my ignorance, but what does NAOH stand for and what is its common name. I have been in hospital for the last three months and I have forgot. I have two drums of chemicals, one is caustic soda KOH yes ??
The other NAOH ???
Thanks

(04-22-2010 01:26 PM)BobBoyce Wrote:  Good catch Ben, that certainly was NOT me. I replied there as well. Potchen did a lot of that sort of crap.

Bob Boyce
05-01-2010 10:37 PM
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benny Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
(05-01-2010 10:37 PM)Llew Wrote:  Hi Bob,
I hate to show my ignorance, but what does NAOH stand for and what is its common name. I have been in hospital for the last three months and I have forgot. I have two drums of chemicals, one is caustic soda KOH yes ??
The other NAOH ???
Thanks

(04-22-2010 01:26 PM)BobBoyce Wrote:  Good catch Ben, that certainly was NOT me. I replied there as well. Potchen did a lot of that sort of crap.

Bob Boyce

NaOH is the chemical name for Sodium Hydroxide
KOH is the chemical name for Potassium Hydroxide.

Try 'googling' for more information on these.
05-02-2010 12:45 AM
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thomasbala Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Testing The Strength Of your HHO Gas
[quote='TheCell' pid='30951' dateline='1264311633']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPjTx0iUytg

Assuming I "properly" tested the strength of my HHO gas and found it to be inferior, i.e., not very strong what would I do to strengthen it?
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2010 06:56 PM by thomasbala.)
05-02-2010 06:55 PM
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