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Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
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tbhavsar Offline
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Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed

I am experimenting with three cell in series with `+n-n+' plate configuration; I
am not getting expected output of 1 LPM. Following are my observations so
far….EXPERTS/MENTORS, your opinion is desperately needed…; please help.

Setup:

I have connected three cells in series; '+n-n+' config, with 1/8 spacing.
Following are my reading on voltage and amp. I have yet to measure gas output..
hopefully in couple of days.

Cell #1: 4.03 v, voltage on neutral plate ~2v
Cell #2: 3.78 v; voltage on neutral plate ~2.10v
Cell #3: 4.40 v; voltage on neutral plate ~ 2.15v

Total amp < 3.5; kept running for 1 hr.

Observations: With Series, amp & temp is low that is good thing but it also
reduced output!

Questions:
1) How come 12.xx voltage from car battery is not equally divided; may it is
based on slight difference between gap for each plate, surface across three
cells.

2) What is effect of `N' (Neutral plates) on current (I know it drops Voltage)

3) Since same electrolyte solution works well in Parallel connection, why series
connection is dropping gas output? It seems that gas production needs high
current so I had to add more NaOH;

3) What is a good amount of catalyst / gallon in Series Connection?

Next Steps:
1) Currently I have added SIX tea spoon of NaOH (powder form); this may be too
much, I do not know how it can damage engine…etc; amp is ~3.5 but bubbles are
slow; so I am wondering if I can add more….

2) Sealing plate edges to stop unwanted current flow…

3) ? (waiting for your feedback)
07-23-2008 06:14 PM
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stevekos7 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
tbhavsar Wrote:Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed

I am experimenting with three cell in series with `+n-n+' plate configuration; I
am not getting expected output of 1 LPM. Following are my observations so
far….EXPERTS/MENTORS, your opinion is desperately needed…; please help.

Setup:

I have connected three cells in series; '+n-n+' config, with 1/8 spacing.
Following are my reading on voltage and amp. I have yet to measure gas output..
hopefully in couple of days.

Cell #1: 4.03 v, voltage on neutral plate ~2v
Cell #2: 3.78 v; voltage on neutral plate ~2.10v
Cell #3: 4.40 v; voltage on neutral plate ~ 2.15v

Total amp < 3.5; kept running for 1 hr.

Observations: With Series, amp & temp is low that is good thing but it also
reduced output!

Questions:
1) How come 12.xx voltage from car battery is not equally divided; may it is
based on slight difference between gap for each plate, surface across three
cells.

2) What is effect of `N' (Neutral plates) on current (I know it drops Voltage)

3) Since same electrolyte solution works well in Parallel connection, why series
connection is dropping gas output? It seems that gas production needs high
current so I had to add more NaOH;

3) What is a good amount of catalyst / gallon in Series Connection?

Next Steps:
1) Currently I have added SIX tea spoon of NaOH (powder form); this may be too
much, I do not know how it can damage engine…etc; amp is ~3.5 but bubbles are
slow; so I am wondering if I can add more….

2) Sealing plate edges to stop unwanted current flow…

3) ? (waiting for your feedback)

Mmmm...

Well, 4v aprox per cell is about what you would expect. The n plates simply divide the voltage across the cell by dividing the voltage between the + and -. Because you have 2x+ and 1x- in each cell you actually only have 2 effective 'gaps' in each cell (because you are feeding volts from anodes to only 1 cathode), which means 6 'gaps' overall, meaning 2.xx volts across each, so that is ok. If you are measuring your voltage on a battery with no charge going through it you will get around 12v overall. With the motor running you will get about 14v, which will increase the wattage and production a little.

The only other factor would be the electrolyte concentration, which affects the conductivity of the solution, and therefore the amperage draw. If amperage is 3.5 then you need a higher concentration of NaOH. In a series cell you need to go fairly concentrated to get the amperage up. What generates gas is watts/sq.in. of plate area. Watts is Volts/Amps. Increase the amps you will increase the Watts.

Yes, definitely seal the edges of the plates. As you increase electrolyte concentration your conductivity in the solution can become higher than in the plates themselves, so the current can easily bypass the n plates in an open bath. Sealing the edges forces the current through the n plates and will increase production. Do this before anything else. You may find that your present electrolyte concentration will be enough once you do this. Make sure that you allow just enough gap between the plates to allow a flow of liquid in between the plates, small holes or masking off all but a tiny area at the edges of the plates is the way to go.

If you use a bubbler to clean the gas before it goes into the engine you will have no problems with NaOH going into the motor.

Hope this helps.
(This post was last modified: 07-23-2008 07:25 PM by stevekos7.)
07-23-2008 07:23 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
tbhavsar Wrote:Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed

I am experimenting with three cell in series with `+n-n+' plate configuration; I
am not getting expected output of 1 LPM. Following are my observations so
far….EXPERTS/MENTORS, your opinion is desperately needed…; please help.

The difference in current is due to either cell config (plate spacing or other construction details) or electrolyte strength.

Gas production/current draw is decreased b/c of electrolyte strength.

You have two options, keep adding more electrolyte to get output up OR drop out the neutrals (and maybe add a 4th cell with the extra plates).

Here's why I like the 4th cell....
No sealing edges required.
You already have the neutral plates you removed.
Your plate voltage will go from 2 volts to 3 volts so you won't have to go so strong with your electrolyte.
Maybe (+ - + -) will give you more output, (but you'd need one more plate).

OTOH, maybe a strong electrolyte will keep it from freezing in the winter?Hmm Supposedly some people are still testing that.

Congratulations Grasshopper. You make me proud when you make series cells.Blush

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-23-2008 07:47 PM
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stevekos7 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
colchiro Wrote:
tbhavsar Wrote:Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed

I am experimenting with three cell in series with `+n-n+' plate configuration; I
am not getting expected output of 1 LPM. Following are my observations so
far….EXPERTS/MENTORS, your opinion is desperately needed…; please help.

The difference in current is due to either cell config (plate spacing or other construction details) or electrolyte strength.

Gas production/current draw is decreased b/c of electrolyte strength.

You have two options, keep adding more electrolyte to get output up OR drop out the neutrals (and maybe add a 4th cell with the extra plates).

Here's why I like the 4th cell....
No sealing edges required.
You already have the neutral plates you removed.
Your plate voltage will go from 2 volts to 3 volts so you won't have to go so strong with your electrolyte.
Maybe (+ - + -) will give you more output, (but you'd need one more plate).

OTOH, maybe a strong electrolyte will keep it from freezing in the winter?Hmm Supposedly some people are still testing that.

Congratulations Grasshopper. You make me proud when you make series cells.Blush

Yes, that is another good option - a fourth cell.
07-23-2008 07:59 PM
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tbhavsar Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
colchiro Wrote:
tbhavsar Wrote:Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed

I am experimenting with three cell in series with `+n-n+' plate configuration; I
am not getting expected output of 1 LPM. Following are my observations so
far….EXPERTS/MENTORS, your opinion is desperately needed…; please help.

The difference in current is due to either cell config (plate spacing or other construction details) or electrolyte strength.

Gas production/current draw is decreased b/c of electrolyte strength.

You have two options, keep adding more electrolyte to get output up OR drop out the neutrals (and maybe add a 4th cell with the extra plates).

Here's why I like the 4th cell....
No sealing edges required.
You already have the neutral plates you removed.
Your plate voltage will go from 2 volts to 3 volts so you won't have to go so strong with your electrolyte.
Maybe (+ - + -) will give you more output, (but you'd need one more plate).

OTOH, maybe a strong electrolyte will keep it from freezing in the winter?Hmm Supposedly some people are still testing that.

Congratulations Grasshopper. You make me proud when you make series cells.Blush

Thanks colchiro; I will try adding 4 cell with +-+- config.
07-24-2008 05:24 AM
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tbhavsar Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
stevekos7 Wrote:
tbhavsar Wrote:Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed

I am experimenting with three cell in series with `+n-n+' plate configuration; I
am not getting expected output of 1 LPM. Following are my observations so
far….EXPERTS/MENTORS, your opinion is desperately needed…; please help.

Setup:

I have connected three cells in series; '+n-n+' config, with 1/8 spacing.
Following are my reading on voltage and amp. I have yet to measure gas output..
hopefully in couple of days.

Cell #1: 4.03 v, voltage on neutral plate ~2v
Cell #2: 3.78 v; voltage on neutral plate ~2.10v
Cell #3: 4.40 v; voltage on neutral plate ~ 2.15v

Total amp < 3.5; kept running for 1 hr.

Observations: With Series, amp & temp is low that is good thing but it also
reduced output!

Questions:
1) How come 12.xx voltage from car battery is not equally divided; may it is
based on slight difference between gap for each plate, surface across three
cells.

2) What is effect of `N' (Neutral plates) on current (I know it drops Voltage)

3) Since same electrolyte solution works well in Parallel connection, why series
connection is dropping gas output? It seems that gas production needs high
current so I had to add more NaOH;

3) What is a good amount of catalyst / gallon in Series Connection?

Next Steps:
1) Currently I have added SIX tea spoon of NaOH (powder form); this may be too
much, I do not know how it can damage engine…etc; amp is ~3.5 but bubbles are
slow; so I am wondering if I can add more….

2) Sealing plate edges to stop unwanted current flow…

3) ? (waiting for your feedback)

Mmmm...

Well, 4v aprox per cell is about what you would expect. The n plates simply divide the voltage across the cell by dividing the voltage between the + and -. Because you have 2x+ and 1x- in each cell you actually only have 2 effective 'gaps' in each cell (because you are feeding volts from anodes to only 1 cathode), which means 6 'gaps' overall, meaning 2.xx volts across each, so that is ok. If you are measuring your voltage on a battery with no charge going through it you will get around 12v overall. With the motor running you will get about 14v, which will increase the wattage and production a little.

The only other factor would be the electrolyte concentration, which affects the conductivity of the solution, and therefore the amperage draw. If amperage is 3.5 then you need a higher concentration of NaOH. In a series cell you need to go fairly concentrated to get the amperage up. What generates gas is watts/sq.in. of plate area. Watts is Volts/Amps. Increase the amps you will increase the Watts.

Yes, definitely seal the edges of the plates. As you increase electrolyte concentration your conductivity in the solution can become higher than in the plates themselves, so the current can easily bypass the n plates in an open bath. Sealing the edges forces the current through the n plates and will increase production. Do this before anything else. You may find that your present electrolyte concentration will be enough once you do this. Make sure that you allow just enough gap between the plates to allow a flow of liquid in between the plates, small holes or masking off all but a tiny area at the edges of the plates is the way to go.

If you use a bubbler to clean the gas before it goes into the engine you will have no problems with NaOH going into the motor.

Hope this helps.

Thanks stevekos7; appriciate your reply. sealing edges make sense; how should I seal the edges. I have Silicon glue that I bought from HD; also have Hot glue gun... but it may fall after some time so I do not know....

As far as having extra holes; should that be on all plates or just + and - plates.
07-24-2008 05:27 AM
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nine_of_us Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
Tbhavsar,

Nice setup.
1) Why is the concrete wet around the the canisters?
2) How do you like using the strap on caps?
3) How are those sealed?

Thanks, nine_of_us
07-24-2008 06:18 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
tbhavsar Wrote:Thanks stevekos7; appriciate your reply. sealing edges make sense; how should I seal the edges. I have Silicon glue that I bought from HD; also have Hot glue gun... but it may fall after some time so I do not know....

As far as having extra holes; should that be on all plates or just + and - plates.

With no neutrals you won't need to seal the edges, o/w you can't use anything that breaks down with electrolyte or conducts electricity (so silicon is out). I heard that the stuff you dip tool handles in works nicely.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-24-2008 02:57 PM
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stevekos7 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
tbhavsar Wrote:Thanks stevekos7; appriciate your reply. sealing edges make sense; how should I seal the edges. I have Silicon glue that I bought from HD; also have Hot glue gun... but it may fall after some time so I do not know....

As far as having extra holes; should that be on all plates or just + and - plates.

I used marine grade silicone on my last sealed cell, but it sagged and weakened after just a few hours of bench testing. I was told that Polyeurethane is a better product where heat is present, and Poly is more resistant to alkaline than silicone. So I am about to build my next cell this weekend using a marine grade Poly adhesive/sealant. I'll let you know how the new sealant holds up.

If you want to seal it but still immerse it in a bath, you could try duct tape over plastic wrap as a test. You can prove it up with that and build something more substantial after you have tested it. Better is to encase the cell in acrylic sheet (a la ZeroFossilFuel). You just need to leave just a bit of a gap at the bottom for fluid movement. Otherwise use small holes as suggested.

Holes need to be in all plates if they are going to be fully sealed against the sides/bottom. I use my plates long side vertical so that I can fill the container just below the top of the plates. That way you don't have to seal the top of the plates. Re the holes in the plates, stagger them left/right to reduce current leakage.
07-24-2008 10:42 PM
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tbhavsar Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Three Cells in Series – Observation & Improvements Needed
stevekos7 Wrote:
tbhavsar Wrote:Thanks stevekos7; appriciate your reply. sealing edges make sense; how should I seal the edges. I have Silicon glue that I bought from HD; also have Hot glue gun... but it may fall after some time so I do not know....

As far as having extra holes; should that be on all plates or just + and - plates.

I used marine grade silicone on my last sealed cell, but it sagged and weakened after just a few hours of bench testing. I was told that Polyeurethane is a better product where heat is present, and Poly is more resistant to alkaline than silicone. So I am about to build my next cell this weekend using a marine grade Poly adhesive/sealant. I'll let you know how the new sealant holds up.

If you want to seal it but still immerse it in a bath, you could try duct tape over plastic wrap as a test. You can prove it up with that and build something more substantial after you have tested it. Better is to encase the cell in acrylic sheet (a la ZeroFossilFuel). You just need to leave just a bit of a gap at the bottom for fluid movement. Otherwise use small holes as suggested.

Holes need to be in all plates if they are going to be fully sealed against the sides/bottom. I use my plates long side vertical so that I can fill the container just below the top of the plates. That way you don't have to seal the top of the plates. Re the holes in the plates, stagger them left/right to reduce current leakage.

Ok; I will try that; from where did you buy marine gr. poly glue?
07-25-2008 03:03 AM
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