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Toyota AFR update info requested
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ncmountainmadness Offline
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Post: #1
Toyota AFR update info requested
I have been on several other HHO forums for years. Ive Been monitoring this board for some time, just have not posted yet. It appears that this forum/board seems to be the best avialable place for dealing with the topics of EFI tuning, and sensor chain adjusting.

I've read many of the posts here pertaining to AFR tuning, however near all seem to be dealing with a 5 wire sensor common to Nissan. I am looking for anyone that may have some positive info where dealing with the 4 wire AFR in 4 cyl toyotas is concerned. My present test vehicle is a 2005 Pontiac Vibe, that is using the 1.8L Corolla engine.

I am familiar with many of the links. Toyota links as referred by Rick, (Colchiro) as well as the writeups by MPG Mike. However, so far have not had much luck with any of the suggested approaches.

At present I have sucessfully built circuitry by which to adjust the CTS, IAT and MAF sensors, all combined in one nice neat little box. Only attempt at AFR so far was to use Mike's idea of installing a series resistor (30ohm or less) in the signal wire (blue wire). This has shown 0 effect.

At present have Fuel preheating, and water vapor injection installed. Will go back to HHO approach when I can prove that I can control the effect of these simpler approaches. Very detailed tests have proven that both, the heating and vapor, whether seperate or together, DO have positive results. Both have decreased my fuel economy when in use due to lack of tuning. This tells me proper tuning would improve the economy. Without being able to lean the mix with the AFR circuitry, going any further is wasted time and fuel. I do have the CTS,IAT and MAF tweaked, but without the AFR the job is not complete.

Can anyone better enlighten me on the latest and greatest way of dealing with the 4 wire Toyota AFR?

Many thanks,
Mike in Alabama
07-15-2008 12:16 PM
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AIR_WIZZ Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Toyota AFR update info requested
2007 Tacoma 4cyl, manual transmission. 4 Cell, 2.5 Gallon HHO Gen.
Truck has a Leer construction cap with approximatly 1000 lbs. of tools and an air bag suspension system out back. Nothing on the roof.
With no mods:
Smile 300 miles in SoFla @ 70 MPH (two stops to pee) w/ A/C and cruise control on 87 Octaine, government owned service station gas (NO F'ing corn!) yielded 22.7 MPG.
Smile Tank to tank averages yeild 20 MPG consistantly over 6 months.
With mods:
Smile Yesterday, with only 3 cells wired in series pulling only 7 amps and a simple spacer on my O2 sensor (OOPS! AFingR Sensor!), Under exact same conditions AND the exact same gas pump, I yielded 24.6 MPG.
According to my math...
(24.6 - 22.7) / 22.7
1.9/22.7 = .08 * 100 = 8%
Not terribly impressed BUT!
I have a huge surge in horse power and drive-ability. Much less rattle noises and a very usable powerband.
I have only begun to scratch the surface of all the sensor tweeks I can perform and I will keep posting my results (GOD willing) but I desperatly need more information about BSing the AFR sensor for this vehicle for less than $300 beans!
Some one...throw us bone.....or a link........OK!?!?!?

2007 Toyota Tacoma, 4 cyl. Manual Transmission
Experimenting with: 4 cell HHO gen. w/ 2.5 gallon capacity.
Veterran Mech/Tech/Supervisor and Florida HVAC/R Contractor
07-15-2008 02:42 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Toyota AFR update info requested
The trouble is... all the EFIE builders are too busy catching up with their backlog to do the research. They're having to hire and train new people and are swamped. It doesn't help they have more support here as a result as well.

I know it can be done. I know of an e85 conversion that claims to have tackled all versions, but their product is still in development in a product that'll sell for more than $400. I know at least one of you isn't interested in that.Hmm

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-15-2008 03:01 PM
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AIR_WIZZ Offline
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Post: #4
Sad RE: Toyota AFR update info requested
URD sells one that is designed for enrichening A/F ratios for blown or charged systems and I've seen comments here and there that it can be used to lean the mixture but for $300 bucks... ugh... It's REALLY gotta work!
After literally being nickled and dimed for over $1500 in R&D "stuff" to test this and test that, I'm really hoping I (WE) can catch a bone on this.
PS: When I get a second to think, I'll put up some pix and vid's of my system. 2 careers and this hobby with a wife and 2 kids (DOGS!) is proving to be an overload! I barely have time to get drunk these days! Big Grin


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2007 Toyota Tacoma, 4 cyl. Manual Transmission
Experimenting with: 4 cell HHO gen. w/ 2.5 gallon capacity.
Veterran Mech/Tech/Supervisor and Florida HVAC/R Contractor
07-15-2008 03:55 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Toyota AFR update info requested
AIR_WIZZ Wrote:2 careers and this hobby with a wife and 2 kids (DOGS!) is proving to be an overload! I barely have time to get drunk these days! Big Grin

Something wrong with those priorities.

I'd move drinking to the top and kids to the bottom.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-15-2008 04:12 PM
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ncmountainmadness Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Toyota AFR update info requested
AIR WIZZ

Nice HHO design...big $'s on those filter housings...or have you found a failry cheap source? .If I read you right you stated that on AFR's so far you've only tried the 02 bung spacer?

Ive read many places about folks doing such, and not to say it might not work, but I just havent seen any proven test data to back why it does or does not. The AFR sensors work at much higher temps than the older 02's. To move the sensor out of the hot gas stream to me would lower its running temp and possible cause an engine fault code. But then again I havent tried it either.

Ive been at this HHO thing for going on 10 years now, and just in the past few years very serious about the sensor chain approach, as quite obviously on the newer cars we dont have a choice. Like yourself, and many others, tinker time is very important. I try my best to spend that time working on data proven approaches.

I'd consider sometimes getting drunk while tinkering!!...just not with a soldering iron in hand (dont ask)

COLCHIRO

I know at least one of you isn't interested in that

Well if you were referring to me, then yes I am interested in any new technology. But as I'm quite apt at consturcting my own circuitry, then No, I would prefer not to buy something that I can build myself. Unless of course the cost is quite close to the actual raw componenets. However most of the stuff I've seen to date has mere pennies invested and high sale price. Eagle researches EFIE, is probably one of the few devices Ive seen in years that is well worth the price. But then again George Wiseman/Eagle has always been a share the knowledge kind of guy.

as for the drinking vs kids, might woudl have to agree with you on that one!!

OK really didnt get any AFR answers, new approaches yet....anyone else got any new news or bones to throw?
07-16-2008 04:55 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Toyota AFR update info requested
ncmountainmadness Wrote:I know at least one of you isn't interested in that

Well if you were referring to me, then yes I am interested in any new technology. But as I'm quite apt at consturcting my own circuitry, then No, I would prefer not to buy something that I can build myself. Unless of course the cost is quite close to the actual raw componenets. However most of the stuff I've seen to date has mere pennies invested and high sale price. Eagle researches EFIE, is probably one of the few devices Ive seen in years that is well worth the price. But then again George Wiseman/Eagle has always been a share the knowledge kind of guy.

OK really didnt get any AFR answers, new approaches yet....anyone else got any new news or bones to throw?

Yes, I was referring to you, when I mentioned an E85 converter, due to your "NO F'ing corn!" comment above. E85 is 85% ethanol, at this point, mostly from corn.Wink

AFAIK, Wiseman is the creator of the EFIE and Mike's current design. ZFF has his version of the EFIE and I know he drives a late model Tacoma work truck, which should have an air-fuel sensor. I'd like to build his design, just in case it works, but haven't the time or ambition.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-16-2008 09:59 AM
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ncmountainmadness Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Toyota AFR update info requested
Rick,

Go read again....that wasnt me that made the No corn statement...it was the other fellow. But still true....I'm not much for buying stuff that I Can build.

Yeah I know Wiseman is the creator, I bought a few from him years ago. Still have em, just not using on present vehicles.
Thanks for the info on ZFF and his link, Plan to give it a close looking over. May try to PM and see if we truly are working on the same sensor.

ps...remember mkc1962 from the oupower forums whom youve tried to help in the past? that be me....lost ability to post here for some reason or another so had to create another profile.

thanks again for some feedback.

Mike in Alabama
07-16-2008 11:00 AM
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AIR_WIZZ Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Toyota AFR update info requested
OOPS! Colchiro, you got a little egg on you there. I said "No Fing Corn" I don't know what the story is on that subject between you two guys, but here is my story.
I dont have a problem with corn particularly, but, I don't want corn in my results or my tank because I don't have a truck designed for this purpose. More specifically, if your ecu is not mapped to include E85 in some percentages then you loose. E85 does not have the same power yield as gasoline.
To answer a few other comments:
Filter housings ran about $38 each, but it was all the little stuff that actually winds up costing alot. This filters are also available in white with out the bypass valving for $18. Once a designed is settled on, this is the better option. Seeing the bubbles is kewl at first but when its all built and you just need it to work, it's over rated. The housing is ideal furthermore because of the logistics. 3/4" pipe fittings and gizmos are readily available to all of us back yard mechanics and makes playing with the design and expanding very easy.
I started with 1 cell, then 2, then 4, then 6 and back to 4 with an electric pump and additional filter housing that actually filtered the water during the process. It got taky after awhile. I'm back to this form fitting, 4 cell design that fit amazing well behind the front bumper as if it were made for it. Another housing (upside down) serves as a bubbler. Then a check valve and flash back arrester, um...3 of them to be exact.
WHY?
Well, for those of you who have had the bewbies to play with stuff, you know this is some of the fastest igniting crap I've ever seen. I fashioned a "Potato Cannon" from 2" PVC and a BBQ igniter and shot off an old pair of socks for kicks. WOW!
BUT! If you really want to have fun and show off........ get a cup with bubble solution and put the hose in it. When the gas makes soap bubbles, take a scoop full in your hand and ignite it.
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Trust me, start small and let your nutz govern you accordingly! Don't try this drunk with you dumba$$ buddies. Get your buddies drunk first, then do it! And don't pop it off close to your ears! It is extremely loud! But it is not hot at all.

Regarding results from a bung adapter, I hope this qualifies to some degree. 8% isn't terrible but there is obviously alot more potential there that is needed. Hacking harnesses and probing expensive sensors is hard to stomach on a new, perfectly functioning vehicle. I wish my lawnmower used an AFR cuz I could afford to play with the envelope without worrying about the cost and repercussions.

2007 Toyota Tacoma, 4 cyl. Manual Transmission
Experimenting with: 4 cell HHO gen. w/ 2.5 gallon capacity.
Veterran Mech/Tech/Supervisor and Florida HVAC/R Contractor
07-16-2008 11:58 AM
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ncmountainmadness Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Toyota AFR update info requested
WIZZ,

ahh...nothing tween us...just an honest misreading misunderstading is all.

Agree with you in that respect on the corn, but we dont have E85 here in the dep sout yet...cept for the local moonshine!


where did you find the filter housings for $18?

OH yeah nothing like a bit of fun with the HHO on occasion....especially for the sceptical.

Oh please no get me wrong, not knocking your 8% at all on the bung, as an AFR approach Just wanting to understand why it works. However as we are running close to the same engine, and yes mine near new as well, may give your approach a try as well as try to get some test data to back it for future askers. So far Ive tried a few things with no repurcussions. Wish me luck about to try some other things.

However I sorta feel bad for you in one respect....My old ride was a 2004 Toyota 2.4 Liter 4 cyl and I got 26 mpg consistent from day one. with nothing added or tinkered, regardless how heavy I loaded it including pulling a small bass boat. Odd yours would only avg 20. Nothing has changes in 4 years to justify that. and Toyota has always gotten better mpg than the nissan equals. However, I didnt have a shell, only a tool box.



well gotta go. Catch you guys this weekend
07-16-2008 02:34 PM
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