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Turbos and hho injection???
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cschauerj Offline
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Post: #1
Turbos and hho injection???
Yeah I want the best of both worlds. I've already received a wide band EIFE for my tocoma. My smacksbooster gen IV fuel cell is on the way. I'm excited to get things under way. I'm also considering a turbo charger install on this truck. I know, it sounds counterproductive. But under normal driving conditions (out of boost) I want the added fuel efficiency. My concern is if the two will work in harmony with one another. Anyone have any success with this? I was planning on wiring a switch for the booster and EIFE inside the truck incase in needed to disable them. I was thinking that under hard driving conditions I could just turn the system off. But then it occurred to me that the computer probably has a learning curve to go through each time it is powered on and off and that if might cause problems to cut the hho booster and the EIFE at the same time i start running the engine under boost. Can I make this work?
02-27-2009 08:13 AM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Turbos and hho injection???
(02-27-2009 08:13 AM)cschauerj Wrote:  Yeah I want the best of both worlds. I've already received a wide band EIFE for my tocoma. My smacksbooster gen IV fuel cell is on the way. I'm excited to get things under way. I'm also considering a turbo charger install on this truck. I know, it sounds counterproductive. But under normal driving conditions (out of boost) I want the added fuel efficiency. My concern is if the two will work in harmony with one another. Anyone have any success with this? I was planning on wiring a switch for the booster and EIFE inside the truck incase in needed to disable them. I was thinking that under hard driving conditions I could just turn the system off. But then it occurred to me that the computer probably has a learning curve to go through each time it is powered on and off and that if might cause problems to cut the hho booster and the EIFE at the same time i start running the engine under boost. Can I make this work?
I would be very reluctant to run any turbocharged vehicle (on boost) with HHO and an EFIE. HHO technology is not to the point yet where you can safeguard against an over lean condition. You'll burn a hole in a piston in a New York minute if you're running too lean with boost on. You've got the right idea, a dual system: HHO with no boost; no HHO with boost. Rather than rely on the driver to turn the HHO and EFIE off when the turbo kicks in you may want to devise an automatic system that shuts off the HHO and EFIE when the wastegate opens. I've only heard rumors that Toyotas have an ECU learning curve. Don't know if it's true or not. I can't imagine that to be the case. There's nothing for the ECU to learn. HHO assists combustion which increases the O2 level in the exhaust which makes the ECU increase the injector pulse width (richen the mixture); The EFIE changes the "lean" signal to the ECU to prevent a richer mixture. Thus no learning curve.
02-27-2009 01:31 PM
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ptours99 Offline
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RE: Turbos and hho injection???
(02-27-2009 01:31 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  
(02-27-2009 08:13 AM)cschauerj Wrote:  Yeah I want the best of both worlds. I've already received a wide band EIFE for my tocoma. My smacksbooster gen IV fuel cell is on the way. I'm excited to get things under way. I'm also considering a turbo charger install on this truck. I know, it sounds counterproductive. But under normal driving conditions (out of boost) I want the added fuel efficiency. My concern is if the two will work in harmony with one another. Anyone have any success with this? I was planning on wiring a switch for the booster and EIFE inside the truck incase in needed to disable them. I was thinking that under hard driving conditions I could just turn the system off. But then it occurred to me that the computer probably has a learning curve to go through each time it is powered on and off and that if might cause problems to cut the hho booster and the EIFE at the same time i start running the engine under boost. Can I make this work?
I would be very reluctant to run any turbocharged vehicle (on boost) with HHO and an EFIE. HHO technology is not to the point yet where you can safeguard against an over lean condition. You'll burn a hole in a piston in a New York minute if you're running too lean with boost on. You've got the right idea, a dual system: HHO with no boost; no HHO with boost. Rather than rely on the driver to turn the HHO and EFIE off when the turbo kicks in you may want to devise an automatic system that shuts off the HHO and EFIE when the wastegate opens. I've only heard rumors that Toyotas have an ECU learning curve. Don't know if it's true or not. I can't imagine that to be the case. There's nothing for the ECU to learn. HHO assists combustion which increases the O2 level in the exhaust which makes the ECU increase the injector pulse width (richen the mixture); The EFIE changes the "lean" signal to the ECU to prevent a richer mixture. Thus no learning curve.
i think all ecu have a learning curve,i might be wrong but when you trick the ecu with efie the fuel maps change to the new fuel and as you go on it relearns to make a new map.as far as turbo switching,if you get a boost sensor and wire it in to a pressure/vac switch when your boosting the press will make contacts on press switch energize , then to a relay w/normally closed contacts will open when energized.thus turns off the hho unit.

selling an enclosure for the rear of cab semi truck 28''X20''X6'' CUSTOM MADE ALUMINUM TO HOUSE HHO GENERATORS AND INCLUDING A RESERVOIR BUBBLER AND REGULAR BUBBLR ptoures@sbcglobal.net usa only
02-27-2009 02:37 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Turbos and hho injection???
If the system goes into open loop you should be good, but it's the partial throttle area that would worry me. You'd really want to be conservative and move slow if you have a turbo.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
02-27-2009 06:45 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Turbos and hho injection???
[/quote]i think all ecu have a learning curve,i might be wrong but when you trick the ecu with efie the fuel maps change to the new fuel and as you go on it relearns to make a new map.as far as turbo switching,if you get a boost sensor and wire it in to a pressure/vac switch when your boosting the press will make contacts on press switch energize , then to a relay w/normally closed contacts will open when energized.thus turns off the hho unit.
[/quote]
Let's oversimplify the fuel map and just consider 2 signals on an x, y grid. Rpm and engine load; it does not matter which one is x and which one is y. First understand that fuel maps just control the injector pulse width, i.e. the time the injector is "on"; the longer it is "on" the more fuel is pushed through the pintle. Let's say x=650 RPM and y=2[engine load]. The fuel map is programmed to a very small injector pulse width, say 3 milliseconds, because obviously the engine is just idling. Now change x to 6500 and y to 30; the fuel map says the injector pulse width should be now 300 milliseconds because it looks like we're going about 100 mph. Fuel maps don't change; they're built in to the ECU. Thus, there's nothing to learn with HHO and an EFIE; the fuel map just sends the appropriate signal [already programmed] to the injectors telling them how long to stay open. In the real world there are quite a few mor signals that make up the fuel map values such as the AIT, ECT, EGR, MAP, BARO, etc. As far as the fuel maps are concerned there is no new fuel with HHO and an EFIE, just a different signal that it already has stored in its data base for that particular condition. If you want to change your fuel map the cheapest way is to buy a "chip". There are a few adjustable ECU's out there but they are way too expensive.
02-27-2009 08:08 PM
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hydrohybrids Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Turbos and hho injection???
While I don't usually frequent too many forums. I joined to shed a little light on gasoline turbo cars... with HHO.

I have been running a simple 4 plate cell +NN- and have had great results.

My nissan 240sx turbo is a 2.0 liter that runs 7lbs of boost stock. It has been running this same cell for nearly one year and is a daily driver. I have tested this current set up for thousands of miles with no with no ill effects.

I have not yet dyno tested the car, but I can certainly feel a difference with the system on and off performance wise. Which of course doesn't prove anything...lol

As for fuel mileage... With hydrogen alone this car is getting 30mpg in the city and 41mpg on the highway!

Prior to hydrogen the best mileage this vehicle got was about 24 city/ 28hwy.

My car has been quite the topic of debate in the 240sx world where this kind of mileage is unheard of for this engine. My results have been very controversial in the tuner community... others have since been inspired to test on their own 240sx with good results.

This is a video that shows my simple set up... nearly 15,000 views so far.
41mpg turbo 240sx video

I do not use an EFIE on this car... I would not tamper with the a/f ratios on a turbo car without a proper wideband O2 system for tuning. Those tests will come... but at 41mpg i am honestly very happy. lol

Tuners make use of several tools to enrich and lean out their rides. One of my old school fellow 240sx club members has a full stand alone ECU and has control over absolutely everything in his turbo engine. He has blown up more turbo cars than anyone I know... Last time his car blew up it was running pure e85 at 20lbs of boost. Extremes come with risks... and a big price tag!

In my testing, small amounts of supplemental HHO in a gasoline turbo engine have been safe and very effective. In Nissans, and most other turbo cars, the ECU will go into open loop at wide open throttle. They will dump as much fuel as possible. I like to test wide open throttle... haha ...trust me.

During light acceleration I have had no problems either. Running around town is a joy and the obvious benefits of HHO are observed.

I would stay away from any type of EFIE or MAP enhancers of any kind on these turbo gasoline applications. Adjusting the A/F ratios without proper knowledge could be disastrous. Don't add a crap load of hydrogen either! I don't think a smack booster would be in order... think less...

You won't need a whole lot to make a difference just find the sweet spot. Turbos seem to like HHO!

A word of warning to anyone with a NON-stock turbo. My car is a stock turbo from the factory. Be very sure your aftermarket fuel management is performing up to par. A bit rich is even ok... Many "back yard" turbo set ups would be ill advised to tinker with HHO due to lack of adequate fuel mangement. A proper after market kit with reprogrammed ECU and upgraded fuel system should be fine.

I urge anyone reading this in search of gasoline turbo hydrogen info to join me in testing. Try it out and see how it works!

Post any turbo gasoline HHO results in this thread....
05-06-2009 05:41 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Turbos and hho injection???
(05-06-2009 05:41 PM)hydrohybrids Wrote:  While I don't usually frequent too many forums. I joined to shed a little light on gasoline turbo cars... with HHO.

I have been running a simple 4 plate cell +NN- and have had great results.

My nissan 240sx turbo is a 2.0 liter that runs 7lbs of boost stock. It has been running this same cell for nearly one year and is a daily driver. I have tested this current set up for thousands of miles with no with no ill effects.

I have not yet dyno tested the car, but I can certainly feel a difference with the system on and off performance wise. Which of course doesn't prove anything...lol

As for fuel mileage... With hydrogen alone this car is getting 30mpg in the city and 41mpg on the highway!

Prior to hydrogen the best mileage this vehicle got was about 24 city/ 28hwy.

My car has been quite the topic of debate in the 240sx world where this kind of mileage is unheard of for this engine. My results have been very controversial in the tuner community... others have since been inspired to test on their own 240sx with good results.

This is a video that shows my simple set up... nearly 15,000 views so far.
41mpg turbo 240sx video

I do not use an EFIE on this car... I would not tamper with the a/f ratios on a turbo car without a proper wideband O2 system for tuning. Those tests will come... but at 41mpg i am honestly very happy. lol

Tuners make use of several tools to enrich and lean out their rides. One of my old school fellow 240sx club members has a full stand alone ECU and has control over absolutely everything in his turbo engine. He has blown up more turbo cars than anyone I know... Last time his car blew up it was running pure e85 at 20lbs of boost. Extremes come with risks... and a big price tag!

In my testing, small amounts of supplemental HHO in a gasoline turbo engine have been safe and very effective. In Nissans, and most other turbo cars, the ECU will go into open loop at wide open throttle. They will dump as much fuel as possible. I like to test wide open throttle... haha ...trust me.

During light acceleration I have had no problems either. Running around town is a joy and the obvious benefits of HHO are observed.

I would stay away from any type of EFIE or MAP enhancers of any kind on these turbo gasoline applications. Adjusting the A/F ratios without proper knowledge could be disastrous. Don't add a crap load of hydrogen either! I don't think a smack booster would be in order... think less...

You won't need a whole lot to make a difference just find the sweet spot. Turbos seem to like HHO!

A word of warning to anyone with a NON-stock turbo. My car is a stock turbo from the factory. Be very sure your aftermarket fuel management is performing up to par. A bit rich is even ok... Many "back yard" turbo set ups would be ill advised to tinker with HHO due to lack of adequate fuel mangement. A proper after market kit with reprogrammed ECU and upgraded fuel system should be fine.

I urge anyone reading this in search of gasoline turbo hydrogen info to join me in testing. Try it out and see how it works!

Post any turbo gasoline HHO results in this thread....

Thank you for your post; very informative. What year is your 240SX?
05-06-2009 08:14 PM
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