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ULTRACAPACITOR DISCHARGE UPON ENGINE LOAD?
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255KCamry Offline
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ULTRACAPACITOR DISCHARGE UPON ENGINE LOAD?
HEY GUYS - I HAD A THOUGHT THE OTHER DAY....

MOST OF US HERE ARE USING AN HHO SYSTEM THAT HAS A CONSTANT OR NEARLY SO OUTPUT OF HHO GAS UNDER VARYING ENGINE VACUUM AND LOAD.


HERE'S THE THOUGHT....

WHY NOT USE A DOUBLE-LAYERED ULTRA CAPACITOR THAT DISCHARGES 500A TO 1kA OVER A 10 TO 20 SECOND - TIMEFRAME?

THE CAPACITOR COULD BE SWITCHED ON BY ENGINE VACUUM - HAVING THE DISCHARGE OCCUR WHEN VACUUM DROPS BELOW (NUMERICALLY), SAY 5-10 INCHES OF Hg - WHICH VARIES FROM CAR TO CAR - BUT WOULD CORRESPOND WITH PART OR FULL THROTTLE DEMAND. THE SWITCH COULD BE VACUUM ACTUATED OR THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR ACTUATED (BOTH SHOULD WORK SIMILARLY)
THE VOLTAGE IS LOW, THE CAPACITORS I HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT HAVE AN OUTPUT OF ONLY 2.7VDC. I REEALIZE THIS IS STILL GOBS OF POWER (500 TO 1000A) - AND THIS IS ONLY A THOUGHT - BUT I THINK IT DESERVES A LOOK. COMPARED TO A 12V SYSTEM THAT MAY DRAW 15-30A - THIS IS LIKE 4 - 8 TIMES MORE POWER USAGE; BUT FOR SHORT BURSTS ONLY.

I WOULD ALSO THINK THAT A STRONGER ELECTROLYTE CONCENTRATION AND/OR CLOSER PLATE SPACING WOULD BE BENEFICIAL TO EXTREME DEMAND UNDER LOAD/HEAVY LOAD CONDTIONS.

THE IDEA IS THAT CARS USE THE MOST GAS UPON ACCELERATION, SO WHY NOT GIVE IT AN HHO BOOST FOR A SHORT TIME DURING ACCELERATION ONLY AND STILL RETAIN THE CONSTANT SMALLER VOLUME HHO GENERATOR(S) THAT WE CURRENTLY USE. I KNOW THERE IS A LAG TIME ASSOCIATED WITH GAS GENERATION TIME TO TIME-BURNT - BUT THIS SYSTEM COULD PRODUCE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF HHO QUICKLY AND THEN SHUT OFF TO AVOID ENGINE DRAIN AND OVERHEATING OF THE UNIT.

THESE ULTRACAPACITORS HAVE MORE THAN A MILLION PLUS DUTY-CYCLE LIFE - AND SHOULD LAST FOR YEARS. SECONDLY, THE LOWER VOLTAGE WOULD POSSIBLY ALLOW THE USE OF MORE CONDUCTIVE ELECTRODES SINCE VOLTAGE IS WHAT CAUSES CORROSION - NOT AMPERAGE.

HERE IS ANOTHER INTERESTING THOUGHT - IT TAKES A MINIMUM OF 1.98 VOLTS TO TURN SILVER INTO SILVER OXIDE IN SOLUTION. VOLTAGE COULD BE FURTHER ATTENUATED BY A PWM FROM 2.7V TO 1.35V MINIMUM - THIS WOULD MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO USE SILVER ELECTRODES FOR A QUICK 500A DRAW FROM THE CAPACITOR THAT WOULD RUN FOR A MAXIMUM OF 20 SECONDS. HEAT GENERATED WOULD BE SIGNIFICANT, BUT CONTROLLED BY THE SILVER ELECTRODES AND A PWM....

DO A GOOGLE SEARCH ON ULTRACAPACITORS OR BATCAPS AND SEE WHAT YOU GUYS THINK. THESE THINGS ARE CURRENTLY (NO PUN INTENDED) USED IN AUTOMOTIVE SOUND SYSTEMS TO RUN SUBWOOFERS AND AMPLIFIERS - THINGS OF THAT NATURE. THESE SYSTEMS WOULD REQUIRE A SLOWER DISCHARGE RATE (MUSIC) - AND OUR SYSTEMS WOULD NEED TO DISCHARGE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE FOR ONLY A FEW SECONDS - SOME ROUGH FIGURES PUT THE GENERATION RATE OF HHO AROUND 6 TO 10 LITERS PER MINUTE!

ADDITIONALLY, THESE ULTRACAPACITORS CAN BE RECHARGED QUICKLY DURING TIMES OF ENGINE IDLE OR CLOSE TO IDLE. SINCE THE CAN DISCHARGE QUICKLY, THE REVERSE IS TRUE AS WELL - NOT LIKE A BATTERY THAT DISCHARGES SLOWLY AND TAKES A BIT OF TIME TO RECHARGE.

PLEASE, TELL ME IF THIS IS WORTHY OF FURTHER RESEARCH!


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11-22-2008 10:51 AM
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cjpeaceful Offline
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RE: ULTRACAPACITOR DISCHARGE UPON ENGINE LOAD?
Whoa, talk about a huge amount of potential HHO during a short period of time! "HHOturbo charged" sorta idea?!
11-24-2008 11:21 AM
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255KCamry Offline
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RE: ULTRACAPACITOR DISCHARGE UPON ENGINE LOAD?
cjpeaceful Wrote:Whoa, talk about a huge amount of potential HHO during a short period of time! "HHOturbo charged" sorta idea?!

THIS IS THEORETICAL AT THIS POINT - BUT, YEAH, KINDA LIKE A TURBO - BUT HAVING THE HHO GENERATE3D ONLY UNDER ENGINE LOAD. MY MAIN CONCERN IS IMPROPER CHARGING OF THE CAPACITOR, WHICH WILL RESULT IN EXPLOSION IF TOO MANY VOLTS ARE APPLIED. I MAY TRY A DIFFERENT MORE CONDUCTING PLATE DESIGN FOR THIS SETUP SINCE HEAT GENERATED WILL BE HIGH (TRY TO MAKE EVERYTHING AS CONDUCTIVE AS POSSIBLE)

ANYONE ELSE? THE CAPS ARE ON THEIR WAY - THIS PROJECT WILL START AFTER TURKEY DAY....

ANY OTHER INPUT TO SUPPORT/CONTRAINDICATE IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!!! THANKS!!!
11-24-2008 03:47 PM
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Gary Offline
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RE: ULTRACAPACITOR DISCHARGE UPON ENGINE LOAD?
Well, music ALSO being an interest...how much are you paying for these Ubercaps?
A cheap 1m cap for a subwoofer amp starts at over $50.00.
11-24-2008 04:14 PM
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255KCamry Offline
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RE: ULTRACAPACITOR DISCHARGE UPON ENGINE LOAD?
Gary Wrote:Well, music ALSO being an interest...how much are you paying for these Ubercaps?
A cheap 1m cap for a subwoofer amp starts at over $50.00.

That's about where I figured the price range would be, give or take $15...Pretty inexpensive considering the potential stored energy in one of these...

Haven't got one yet but I would like to have at least a 200A per second discharge rate...
11-24-2008 04:27 PM
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Gary Offline
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RE: ULTRACAPACITOR DISCHARGE UPON ENGINE LOAD?
You want a very slow discharge for this, no? It takes half a minnit to accelerate up to speed, generally, and you wouldn't get any gains from an immediate discharge.
11-24-2008 04:43 PM
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255KCamry Offline
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RE: ULTRACAPACITOR DISCHARGE UPON ENGINE LOAD?
Gary Wrote:You want a very slow discharge for this, no? It takes half a minnit to accelerate up to speed, generally, and you wouldn't get any gains from an immediate discharge.

If the cap is rated at, say 100A for 10s, that rating is for a full discharge. I wouldn't think (I may be wrong here) that the HHO generator would allow that much current to pass. Maybe 90A for 11 sec because of the impedance difference between the plates and electrolyte.

I live in a large city where you'll get run over if you don't drive 10 over the posted limit! I wish I could have a lot of cruising to do, but this ultracapacitor needs to give a good chunk right off the bat (my driving habits) - maybe not a max discharge but close.

But this is AMPS and not so much Voltage...hopefully this can work - then we could get out of using 316 SS and onto better stuff....
11-24-2008 05:13 PM
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belangers Offline
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Post: #8
RE: ULTRACAPACITOR DISCHARGE UPON ENGINE LOAD?
Hello,
I have been working on something similar for years, and it does work fine to create between .8 lpm to 1.5 lpm maximum at 12 volts. It just takes a little while for super caps to charge, as they are not instantaneous like normal capacitors, but, they also release voltage and pretty a pretty steady amperage for the same length of time as their charge is. They do not defy the laws of physics, so, they merely take longer to charge, and they only dump average theoretical amperages out when you experiment with them. You can not buy a super cap that is rated for more than like 4.7 or 5 volts, but they are little battery backup units for computers and cellphones at the moment, unfortunately, the big caps are all mostly 2.5-2.7 volts. Anyway, if it takes 10 seconds of time to charge, this is fine, but, then again, there is no need for anything like a silver plate because you would only be using the unit for 10 seconds on/10 seconds off as you say. For a 10 second burst, it will require that the super caps be wired in a bank to create a battery boost pack, because caps at 800 Farad are ridiculously priced unless you get them used. If you get used caps, there is a reason for this, maybe they are only good for half of their charge. Who knows!

I bought a bunch of 100F caps from Ebay, and I think the key here would be to charge multiple banks, switching over from a dead bank to the freshly charged bank while the cell is under load, by way of electronics. I am trying to build a one cell, three bank system that will just switch power from the cell to the next charged bank as the charge is sensed to be low. Unfortunately, the battery and charging system on the car will still become loaded because the super cap does take a bit of load to charge. If we build a cell with many plates, and many positives, and negatives, to create an abundance of cells, it will make ta decent amount of hho in a short period of time, but nothing extraordinary because the same laws of electronics will still apply, ohms and watts law. My attempts have been to load the cell with a lot of less corrosive electrolyte, like potassium hydroxide and use only low voltage to power it under high amperage for 10 seconds, which does create hho gas, but, only .8-1.5 lpm depending on the cell and how low the impedance is across the cell. We can only release so much stored energy with specific voltages, as well, what you see online, such as welders, and other things need to use the basic laws to determine the maximum outputs of a circuit.

Unfortunately, 1F of capacitance as you say is absolutely nothing compared to what there is used out there, because the average cap used in a 5-6 cap boost bank is 300F to 1200F. If we used (5) 2.7 volt 1200F caps and wired them in series, it equals 13.5 volts . If we take 13.5 volts, and divided that by an average short circuit resistance of .1 ohms, we will get the current out of the circuit theoretically will be 135 amps. If we could potentially get only 135 amps rms at a 13.5 volt short circuit situation , the wattage will max out at 1822.5 watts very easily for probably 10 seconds of time, but, the caps may also take 10 seconds to charge , so, a proper balance of boost capacitor systems will be needed for constant power, and high amperage will have to consist of a near zero resistance in your electrolyte and switching system to create anything at this high of amperage, which is highly impractical. Anyway, here is the formula to figure out instantaneous amperage in a perfect world environment, but, it is very difficult to get a zero ohm resistance with switches, etc., so, we will be stating that the shorted cell will be maybe 1 ohm , which will still be very difficult to make this all happen with the electronics that are necessary to make this work.

If we have a 13.5 volt cap bank, and the circuit creates a 1 ohm load, we will take 13.5 volts /1 ohm which equals 13.5 amps, and multiply 13.5 volts times 13.5 amps equals only 182.5 watts. That will only theoretically produce 1 lpm of HHO. This isn't enough to run too much, maybe only give a good fuel economy. If we use low voltage systems at a very high current, the results end up being the same mathematically because of the resistance or impedance that ends up being produced by switches and electrolyte through watercells, when the voltage drops, the amperage climbs, and the wattage ends up being pretty much the same, and vice versa, when the voltage climbs, the amperage drops, making it equal no matter how we look at it in regards to the resistance in the circuit. If there would be a way to make the resistance lower, then, you would produce much more. Using silver would make it better, but, the amperage used to get a massive output would decimate the silver and transfer the silver to the other plate in an electroplate process. If we used platinum, it may be the best chance because it is the most resistant to corrosion and transfer during electrolysis, as well, it is the best conductor, which would make the resistance much lower. When we talk .2 ohms, water, no matter how we look at it can only be so conductive, no matter which electrolyte is used. I don't thin we could even get below 1 ohm, but, I will attempt this soon enough with other chemicals.


I believe your theory of part time on/off is the key, but, we would have to temporarily bottle the gas for use in the car if I succeed in getting the resistance of the water low enough to create the amperage needed. We could bottle a couple of pounds of pressure safely and offload the hho through a very small orifice to slowly relieve the pressure directly into the engine. HHO under pressure is very reactive in an engine, but, when released, will lose the power until recompressed again. The correct mix is important too, so, I have rectified this by using two negative plates and one positive to make more Hydrogen and less oxygen, making it much more explosive. Under compression, it makes a world of difference as well, so, fuel economy is so much better with more hydrogen than oxygen. I have completed a configuration in my vehicle using the following:

I currently buy (8) 100 Farad 2.7 volt Super Caps for 39 bucks plus 5.98 shipping on Ebay. That is certainly enough to build a boost bank for an HHO cell. Here are my best results using this method so far:

8 caps= 21.6 volts. I use solar cells on the roof of my navigator , mounted in a strange pattern, so I fit what I need, but, I am still shy approximately 50 watts of panels because I can't fit more. I can use the hho cell if I turn it down to 4 lpm constantly without issue, but, if I max it out at 5lpm, I have charge issues, as well, the cells get really hot and the water vapor is created. I currently get 1.66 volts per cell, and if I run the system at 1/2 load, it doesn't even get warm. Unfortunately, if I run it at 4lpm, I have to use the system for 20 minutes on, 20 minutes off at a time until I pipe in a transmission cooler to cool the electrolyte off. I house two cap banks and use one at one time, charging one while using another with high amperage 24 volt relays. Anyway, 21.6 volts / .5 ohm is 43.2 amps. 21.6 v x 43.2 amps= 933.12 watts . My output is 5 Lpm average . It puts out a great stream of HHO, and, it does create a much better fuel economy because I do not use my engine's alternator to power the hho generator. I currently use a custom built 21 plate cell with a 1.5 liter water bottle and KOH as electrolyte.

I think I am, going to try to figure out how to take advantage of generating power from the wheels of the truck while on the highway at 65 plus mph, having the wheel generators engage after this speed so a minimal load is added to the vehicle and large voltages can be generated to see if this will help with my gains. I am currently making about 1/3rd of what it would take to rev the engine up a bit using HHO. If I could make it all much more efficient and create an electronics power supply like that of Stan Meyer, I may be able to get the vehicle to produce 50 plus mpg. I am currently getting 29 mpg with this fuel hog, and that is very good. If I boost the HHO, I have gotten 20 more mpg, but, it is difficult to tell since I have to stop and shut the truck off to let it charge in the sun, then resume driving when the system is fully charged on both cap banks.
07-09-2014 04:14 AM
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