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Vacuum or air intake?
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mrmayhem Offline
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Post: #1
Vacuum or air intake?
I recently purchased a kit that produces about 1lt per min. My question is this.. the included instructions have the hho output connecting to a vacuum line. ("locate a straight vacuum source from your engine, cut this line and install vacuum T").

But with all the research and reading I've done.. it seems the most common method is to connect to the air intake, close to the manifold.

So which is it? I know that a vacuum will actually produce more hho gas (seen it), under steady conditions. But putting the hho into a vacuum line? I'm not sure I like that idea.

Am I better off putting the hho directly into the air intake?

I have 2 oxygen sensors that will have extenders used (The other question.. if I disable the hho system, will the extenders have to be removed? Will the engine run too lean?)

This will be used on a 1999 Mercedes ML320 Suv
12-26-2008 11:46 AM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Vacuum or air intake?
I'm bored, so I'll respond to the newbie question. Vacuum or not will depend upon which camp you ascribe to: there are advocates of both, so I'll try and play both sides.
You are well justified in your fears of utilizing vacuum before a jug full of water. But first let's address the unit itself> is it CLAIMED to do 1L/min. or is that what it does WITHOUT VACUUM?
So, next, we'll assume that it's a fair unit and actually gets this grail of output that most of us have come to with good builds. There ARE many out there that will not even put out this much, yet claim all sorts of things.
At your 1L/min. output, design will be a large factor in your decisions. A rundown of available best-to-worst units in this category by TEMPERATURE RATINGS would go: Dry Cell, Sealed Series Wet cell, Wrapped Brick, Brick-inna-bath, and a few wire, screen, and odd kitchen utensil jobs that don't really count. Unless you have one of the first two, you will probably be experiencing some heat problems at this level of output. By problems, I mean anything over 145-150 degrees F.
You either are hot and making some caustic steam (more on that in a minnit) or are cool and efficient, putting out only HHO gas.
If you are putting in before the air filter, the filter will stop some of the steam, but I wouldn't count on it.
If you are putting in after the air filter, you will be directing gas and/or Steam right into the motor and on the throttle plate, MAP sensor and other expensive parts.
If you are putting into the plenum thru the vacuum, you will bypass the aforementioned parts, and that is "advantage number 1" of vacuum. But caustic steam is still not a good thing. What to do? First, after the unit, a dryer cell, tube, or line to catch much of that. Second, a bubbler full of vinegar to neutralize the acidity of the gasses. Or best yet, a dry cell. But you allready bought something, so that point is moot. If you think the steam is safe coming out of your unit, direct it onto a steel plate and let dry. That should tell you what you need to know. (or for some REAL fun, blow it on some aluminum foil - haven't done that, but I know what will happen.
So you are now sucking gas out of the unit, vacuum is expanding the bubble size, making it look like tons of output, and the advocates of vacuum will tell you that although that is an illusion, there is some unknown mystery that happens to the gas that gives more FE. Call that "advantage number 2".
Next, is your unit a sealed system, or is there one of those little inlet valves that allows air to bubble thru the unit? Allowing air into the plate stack(s) can be a supposed "advantage number 3" by knocking bubbles off of the plates, allowing for more (supposed) production.
However.
That had better be one damn GOOD valve, tight and foolproof. Your casings had better be THICK and strong enough to handle 25hg vacuum, which can collapse a paint can. Your SEALS had better be well-seated, your sealants and glues had better be top quality, your hoses had better not be in danger of becoming punctured in any way, your fittings had better be new enough not to crack, all goes the same for your bubbler and dryer, and you should keep an eye on it constantly, because you are allowed ONLY ONE MISTAKE, and your engine can totally evacuate your unit in about two seconds, pouring relatively cold water into a hot running engine.
Sound the Death Knell.
For those 3 advantages, two not really scientifically proven, you have to consider wether or not it's worth the risk. Is this your daily driver, or the old beater behind the barn? It is your work truck?
My experience with extenders and antifoulers was that they loaded up with carbon. Extenders alone I cannot say, but they only work in very few instances anyway. You'll be wanting an EFIE and a MAP enhancer, and might want to play around with an IAT resistor. My point about the carbon is, if the antifouler tips are fouling up, so is the o2 sensor. Not a cheap fix. EFIE is cheaper, or the same, but you can't honestly resell a bad, used o2 sensor. You can sell an EFIE.
I hope this helped; there are no easy answers without study.
12-26-2008 02:29 PM
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mrmayhem Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Vacuum or air intake?
Sorry for being a newbie. I have to start somewhere.

This is the unit I bought
HHO Kit

I forgot to mention that it has a bubbler (that he recommends filling with the same solution as the cell). I was planning on using a dryer in the output line as a precaution for water/steam getting past the whole setup.

The kit is pretty self-explanitory, I just wasn't sure what to think when I saw the instructions to hook to a vacuum line, when all I have read about was the air intake. I've seen some youtube vacuum tests with hho and the results were not very good.
12-26-2008 05:04 PM
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Gary Offline
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RE: Vacuum or air intake?
Coming from the W4G camp explains why the deference to vacuum. They've always been advocates and were the first out with funky little wire units and a bubbler valve that made things look busy. First one I ever saw. I see that valve is gone, so maybe a few engines got blown and they wised up, as they did with the stupid wires that didn't work.
What I see is a well-built brick-inna-bath unit with two too many plates. 9 plates gives you 8 cells divided by 14 volts, giving you 1.75 volts per cell; a bit short of the 2.3 volts we usually strive for with 6 cells per cellblock. I would think it won't overheat, because it won't produce, or at least I'll be surprised if it does. And it DANG SURE ain't gonna give the 2L/min. at 13 amps he claims. For instance:
My last two cells, one dry cell and one sealed series wet cell, both of 6 cells each, do 1L/min @ 11-12 amps. When these cells were run with 7 cells, I got maybe 200ml/min.
So if you find it doesn't rock your world when you MEASURE the output, just remove a couple plates and watch her go.
Oh, and we were all noobs once! It just gets tiring always answering the same questions over and over, like with anything. And if he's gonna throw in an EFIE with it, that's a pretty good deal regardless.
12-26-2008 06:59 PM
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mrmayhem Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Vacuum or air intake?
Thanks Gary...
I didn't get the Efie with it... He did send me an O2 extender (however, I have 2 pre and 2 post cat), so I'll need a second one. I've been looking at dual efie 02 controllers.... I was planning on installing as per the instructions (vacuum intake)... and use the 2 02 extenders for now... and see how things go. Then make adjustments such as adding the efie controller first, then maybe removing 2 plates as you suggested (good advice!).

As a note.. he sent me an email response through FleaBay.. and said the reason for connecting to the vacuum line is that it increases production of the hho gas... "practically sucking it off the plates".

I anticipate with the 02 extenders.. I'm probably not going to be pleased and may get some CEL come on. In the meantime, I am still shopping for a good / decent dual efie 02 controller.

Thanks for helping!
12-26-2008 07:33 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Vacuum or air intake?
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/store/
From what I've seen, Mike (the progenitor of this website) not only offers what you need, but good support as well. Don't expect THAT from your FleaBay marketeers.
12-27-2008 07:08 AM
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tonyc860 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Vacuum or air intake?
(12-26-2008 07:33 PM)mrmayhem Wrote:  Thanks Gary...
I didn't get the Efie with it... He did send me an O2 extender (however, I have 2 pre and 2 post cat), so I'll need a second one. I've been looking at dual efie 02 controllers.... I was planning on installing as per the instructions (vacuum intake)... and use the 2 02 extenders for now... and see how things go. Then make adjustments such as adding the efie controller first, then maybe removing 2 plates as you suggested (good advice!).

As a note.. he sent me an email response through FleaBay.. and said the reason for connecting to the vacuum line is that it increases production of the hho gas... "practically sucking it off the plates".

I anticipate with the 02 extenders.. I'm probably not going to be pleased and may get some CEL come on. In the meantime, I am still shopping for a good / decent dual efie 02 controller.

Thanks for helping!

From my own personal experience I would say vacuum is the way to go. I have never seen any gain going through intake. However, I cannot agree with Gary anymore. Your unit better be tight or expect a mess. I put a valve on mine and just barely open it to create a draft. That's all you need. I would frequent these forums here. I have learned alot and alot of people have helped me here. Have alot of patience, it is all a learning process.

Tony
2003 Volvo v70 2.5L turbo
2006 Hyundai Sonata 3.3L v6
2005 F150 4.6 ltr-No longer Thank God!Smile
12-30-2008 04:09 PM
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jvcaparo Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Vacuum or air intake?
(12-26-2008 06:59 PM)Gary Wrote:  Coming from the W4G camp explains why the deference to vacuum. They've always been advocates and were the first out with funky little wire units and a bubbler valve that made things look busy. First one I ever saw. I see that valve is gone, so maybe a few engines got blown and they wised up, as they did with the stupid wires that didn't work.
What I see is a well-built brick-inna-bath unit with two too many plates. 9 plates gives you 8 cells divided by 14 volts, giving you 1.75 volts per cell; a bit short of the 2.3 volts we usually strive for with 6 cells per cellblock. I would think it won't overheat, because it won't produce, or at least I'll be surprised if it does. And it DANG SURE ain't gonna give the 2L/min. at 13 amps he claims. For instance:
My last two cells, one dry cell and one sealed series wet cell, both of 6 cells each, do 1L/min @ 11-12 amps. When these cells were run with 7 cells, I got maybe 200ml/min.
So if you find it doesn't rock your world when you MEASURE the output, just remove a couple plates and watch her go.
Oh, and we were all noobs once! It just gets tiring always answering the same questions over and over, like with anything. And if he's gonna throw in an EFIE with it, that's a pretty good deal regardless.

Hi Gary,
It sounds like I bought the same system. When you say remove a couple of plates, what plates should I remove? 1 neg & 1 Pos or 2 neutral? Also when I installed the tubing in the PCV the tubing collapse, this gut I bought from left something to be desired. I would not recommend him. I am still tweeking my system. I see the spark plugs are very clean and the engine is quieter, but NO gain in fuel mileage.
Thanks.
03-06-2009 09:45 AM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Vacuum or air intake?
Ah, rethinking it, the cell could be set up -NNN+NNN-, which would be okay, being two cells at four cells each, giving you a voltage of about 3.37, which would run hot if you let it have amps. Adding one neutral to each side would make it a much better cell. If it IS wired -NNNNNNN+, it won't work at all, unless your alternator is magically producing 20 volts.
You'll need an EFIE to get the fuel savings.[/b]
03-06-2009 12:28 PM
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jvcaparo Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Vacuum or air intake?
Hi Gary,
I have some more info now that I am home. The unit is in a home water filter housing, I bought the complete kit, O2 extenders, PMW, EFIE but I was instructed to connect it to the MAP sensor, it has two adjustments one for city and one for highway, amp and temp guages. The amps are low maybe 5, and the temp has never moved, and the guage's lowest reading is 130 deg F. I am running a 1999 Pont Grand Am 3.4L V-6 105K.
The 9 plates are arranged ---(nn)(nn)++ if that makes sense 3 plates are n the next two are isolated from the n, but are connected together. Then the next two plates are isolated from the + but connected together, then the last two plates are +. The connections are made with nylon and SS washers. Now I installed the unit in January, and I am in Northeast PA, very cold, it has been in the single digets and low teens most of the time I have been using the HHO unit. And I am using 2 tbsp of Sodium Carbonate, PH of about 12-13 in one gallon of distilled water (and denatured alcohol for freezing). He said the cell should generate 2-3L per Min. but I do not see that much comming out of the bubbler, maybe one bubble every 3 sec.



(03-06-2009 12:28 PM)Gary Wrote:  Ah, rethinking it, the cell could be set up -NNN+NNN-, which would be okay, being two cells at four cells each, giving you a voltage of about 3.37, which would run hot if you let it have amps. Adding one neutral to each side would make it a much better cell. If it IS wired -NNNNNNN+, it won't work at all, unless your alternator is magically producing 20 volts.
You'll need an EFIE to get the fuel savings.[/b]
03-06-2009 04:54 PM
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