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Voltage produces rust bloom!
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gtkco Offline
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Post: #1
Voltage produces rust bloom!
Wow! In another thread some were discussing electrode deterioration and some had read that voltage produces rust bloom and didn't know if that was true. Well, I happened to be at an opportune point in my experimenting to test this directly without too much trouble. I'll be darned! It's true. I had run a unit for 4 hours at 5v up to 138F and 7.5 amps. The electrolyte was crystal clear (1 teas Naoh/2L h20). I replaced the electrolyte (1/2 teas Naoh/2L) and rinsed the elements with distilled water. I then ran at 12v. Within 20 minutes and temp of 104F, amps 9.1, I saw the first specks of iron. By 45 minutes and a temp of 138F, amps 11.0 the electrolyte was full of iron bloom. Also, there was more foaming. I am using 304 SS and 18/8 bolts etc for my tests. I have to admit, I am quite amazed by this result! You just never know what is going to happen!
11-05-2008 09:39 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Voltage produces rust bloom!
gtkco Wrote:Wow! In another thread some were discussing electrode deterioration and some had read that voltage produces rust bloom and didn't know if that was true. Well, I happened to be at an opportune point in my experimenting to test this directly without too much trouble. I'll be darned! It's true. I had run a unit for 4 hours at 5v up to 138F and 7.5 amps. The electrolyte was crystal clear (1 teas Naoh/2L h20). I replaced the electrolyte (1/2 teas Naoh/2L) and rinsed the elements with distilled water. I then ran at 12v. Within 20 minutes and temp of 104F, amps 9.1, I saw the first specks of iron. By 45 minutes and a temp of 138F, amps 11.0 the electrolyte was full of iron bloom. Also, there was more foaming. I am using 304 SS and 18/8 bolts etc for my tests. I have to admit, I am quite amazed by this result! You just never know what is going to happen!
gtko:

Is that a typo: "The electrolyte was crystal clear (1 teas Naoh/2L h20). I replaced the electrolyte (1/2 teas Naoh/2L) and rinsed the elements with distilled water." If not, you doubled the electrolyte concentration along with the voltage; so, you don't know whether the rust was the result of increased voltage, or, increased NaOH, or a combo of both.

Did you check HHO output? Any difference?
11-05-2008 10:07 PM
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daddymikey1975 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Voltage produces rust bloom!
actually he DECREASED the NaOH .. orig used 1 tsp./2L then used 1/2 tsp per 2L.. still an interesting experiment...i'd try to make small changes to 1 variable at a time though to narrow down the results.
11-06-2008 04:39 AM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Voltage produces rust bloom!
daddymikey1975 Wrote:actually he DECREASED the NaOH .. orig used 1 tsp./2L then used 1/2 tsp per 2L.. still an interesting experiment...i'd try to make small changes to 1 variable at a time though to narrow down the results.

Yes you are quite correct. However, I had to first see if I could recreate the bloom or not. I wasn't sure if my previous dozen hours of various testing had "conditioned" the electrodes. Also, the test unit I am using is a real water heater. I suspected that if I tried the 1 teas NaOH at 12v I wouldn't get a long enough run to produce any bloom. And since I am also actually trying to make a unit that I can use in my car, I have too many other experiments and challanges to overcome to continue with this line. You are right that this test is not completely conclusive and does not absolutely declare that voltage alone is directly the producer of iron bloom, but it is good enough for DIY'ers to use as a guide. What this test actually says in completely certainty is "a system using high voltage is more prone to iron bloom, increases foam, and probably increases SS deterioration." Very good info for HHO'ers.

Regarding the HHO output, yes I measured it. It appears to not have been affected by the production of the rust. However, that is just a guess. I would have to do an entirely differant approach to get the data to determine that and I would have to run the experiment multiple times to nail down that effect and I have too many other hurdles to over come.
11-06-2008 05:53 AM
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hydrotinkerer Offline
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RE: Voltage produces rust bloom!
This is along the same lines as to where the iron bloom comes from. I'm not sure about voltage being the only cause.

http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=2314
(This post was last modified: 11-06-2008 07:58 AM by hydrotinkerer.)
11-06-2008 07:57 AM
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gtkco Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Voltage produces rust bloom!
hydrotinkerer Wrote:This is along the same lines as to where the iron bloom comes from. I'm not sure about voltage being the only cause.

http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=2314

Thanks for the reply. Actually, my test contradicts some the generally accepted themes of the statements in your thread. That's why I was so surprised. The general reasoning of the statements in your thread makes much more sense. But this experiment conclusively shows that heat and the corrosive affects of NaOH concentration contribute less than voltage to iron bloom. In my test, the 12v test that produced the bloom did so at heat ranges below or equal to the 5v run that ran clear. The 12v test also had less NaOH concentration. Now the blooming did seem to increase it's rate of bloom as the heat rose. But I can't be certain of that because it was a test over time (measurements at start, 10, 20, 30 and 60 min.). Even though I saw some very slight iron specks in the first 10 minutes, it really became noticeable between 20 and 30 minutes. Temps at 104F & 123F respectively. Both temps are still well below the 138F reached during the clear 5v test. So, was the bloom I saw in the 12v test a result of accumulation or because some threshold was reached which accelerated the formation of bloom? There is no way to tell with this experiment. Heat may impact bloom, but it is not the sole cause of it and has a much smaller impact than one might expect. 138F produced zero bloom in the 5v test. The other variable was NaOH concentration. But that was lower in the 12v test that produced the bloom. (Fresh electrolyte and cleaned electrodes were used in both tests). So the only two other variables are amperage and volts. The amps of the clear 5v run started at 4.9 and reached 7.5 during the 4 hour run with absolutely no visible iron bloom. The 12v run started at 6.8 and finished at 13.7 after one hour. First specks of iron were observed at 10 minutes, temp 87F, amps 8.0, volts 11.07. Definite rust bloom was confirmed at 20 min, temp 104, amps 9.1, volts 10.97. After 1 hour bloom was everywhere. So what makes me think that volts and not amps are the culprit? Too many forum members have reported running at much higher amps than 7.5 without constantly complaining of rust bloom. They are also running at low volts. Hence, volts seem to be strongly and directly related to rust bloom. Also, I have followed several member’s use of the Hydro super 2. They have reported that they clean their systems rust bloom often and have some foaming problems which indicates leaching. A recent user has reported the complete deterioration of an anode over a period of 6 months. The hydro is a 12 volt generator. Apparently, volts are the biggest influence on iron bloom out of the four: volts, heat, chemical, or amps. The other three may have an impact on iron bloom and leaching but not as much as volts. Truly bizarre!
11-06-2008 10:08 AM
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hydrotinkerer Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Voltage produces rust bloom!
gtkco,
Did you by chance test it to see if it is magnetic? I did not test mine now I wish I would have thought of it.
11-06-2008 10:55 AM
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Warren928 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Voltage produces rust bloom!
After researching for quite a while, I think the hydro super double is a decent pair of cells, but its wired wrong. It should be wired in series, and still the voltage is too high per cell at 6v, it needs to be dropped. My first thought was using a pack of resistors to drop it down to 3 volts a cell. Some say using a diode? I haven't tried it yet, has anybody here?
(This post was last modified: 11-06-2008 03:28 PM by Warren928.)
11-06-2008 03:27 PM
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gtkco Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Voltage produces rust bloom!
hydrotinkerer Wrote:gtkco,
Did you by chance test it to see if it is magnetic? I did not test mine now I wish I would have thought of it.
Yes. Nothing is magnetic. According to my venders my materials are all either 18/8 bolts/nuts etc or 304 SS plates. I figured with all the experimenting, I didn't have to go with the super premo 316. Once I figure out what I am doing and assuming I am succesful then I'll spend the bucks for 316.
*********
Warren, wiring in series is a much better option for the super 2. It will increase the efficiency and reduce the heat. You'll have readjust your electrolyte concentrations though. You could add the resistors but the hydro is pretty beefy. I think dropping to 6v should be the first step. You have already been successful and I don't know if I would add too many new variables to your install which was origenally quite successful. Based on my tests, dropping to 6v should have a dramatic affect on your deterioration issue.
(This post was last modified: 11-06-2008 05:25 PM by gtkco.)
11-06-2008 05:18 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Voltage produces rust bloom!
Warren928 Wrote:After researching for quite a while, I think the hydro super double is a decent pair of cells, but its wired wrong. It should be wired in series, and still the voltage is too high per cell at 6v, it needs to be dropped. My first thought was using a pack of resistors to drop it down to 3 volts a cell. Some say using a diode? I haven't tried it yet, has anybody here?

If you use resistors make sure the Wattage is sufficient. Resistors are rated by not only Ohms but also Watts. Volts X Amps = Watts. So, if you're 12V and 7A you'd need a resistor rated at at least 84W. Don't see how diodes would reduce voltage. A diode is like a one way street; it only allows current flow in one direction; sometimes called rectifiers because they change AC to DC [make it right]. Your alternator produces AC which then goes through 6 rectifiers to change it to DC. Years ago alternators were rarely replaced; for about $5.00 you could get a kit with 6 new diodes, a set of brushes and the needle bearing. Haven't seen one of those kits in 25 yrs.
11-06-2008 05:47 PM
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