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Water as Fuel?
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rickmay Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Water as Fuel?
OK, amos33, you have my attention. Before, I continue, I would like to relay something to you. Interestingly, I have sent about a half dozen different emails to companies that sell these cells, and not one of them has responded. This has not a good sign to me. The one I really hoped would return the call showed several connected videos that indicated his Mercedes 300D (a lot like my car) got what looked like 59 MPG, highway. He also says his plans are the best

I did go to the link you placed in your response above, and I now know that your name is Bob Elliott, and should I assume that you are Larry's brother? Your great video looks more like an ad than a testimonial. Please excuse my sarcasm. I appreciate your input, and hope we can discuss this more.

I also found a paper done in the 1970s using a gasoline engine and hydrogen. I found this after I saw Larry's link to the natural gas and hydrogen engine, which could be a leap of pure faith since I am not an engineer and natural gas is not gasoline or diesel.

I tried calling Larry, and may try again in a while. I am also having trouble attaching a file. I browse for it, and then hit the ADD ATTACHMENT button, and the attachment disappears.
And by the way, the air car is a tinker toy. Wouldn't want to be in it in a head-on with an old Mercedes or a cement truck.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2011 04:00 PM by rickmay.)
08-26-2011 03:10 PM
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Water as Fuel?
(08-26-2011 03:10 PM)rickmay Wrote:  OK, amos33, you have my attention. Before, I continue, I would like to relay something to you. Interestingly, I have sent about a half dozen different emails to companies that sell these cells, and not one of them has responded. This has not a good sign to me. The one I really hoped would return the call showed several connected videos that indicated his Mercedes 300D (a lot like my car) got what looked like 59 MPG, highway. He also says his plans are the best

I did go to the link you placed in your response above, and I now know that your name is Bob Elliott, and should I assume that you are Larry's brother? Your great video looks more like an ad than a testimonial. Please excuse my sarcasm. I appreciate your input, and hope we can discuss this more.

I also found a paper done in the 1970s using a gasoline engine and hydrogen. I found this after I saw Larry's link to the natural gas and hydrogen engine, which could be a leap of pure faith since I am not an engineer and natural gas is not gasoline or diesel.

I tried calling Larry, and may try again in a while. I am also having trouble attaching a file. I browse for it, and then hit the ADD ATTACHMENT button, and the attachment disappears.
And by the way, the air car is a tinker toy. Wouldn't want to be in it in a head-on with an old Mercedes or a cement truck.

Thanks rickmay, I really tried to keep my name from going public but then you solved that one for me.

I have no connection with Larry of hho2u.com other than as a satisfied customer of his products which i believe are the best on the market due to his unique design and his quick response for support.

I am a Christian
08-26-2011 08:02 PM
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Water as Fuel?
Rickmay: What makes the 11 plate dry cell with 3 holes so much better is that it gets up to speed faster: -nnnn+nnnn-
That means 12V / 5 cells = 2.4 volts / cell. If you are careful and do not go over 10% concentration on KOH you will be generating up to 1.5 lpm at 17-18 Amps. When the alternator kicks in the volts/cell will rise to about 13.4v / 5 cells = 2.8 v/c.

That will raise the temperature of the electrolyte but not to worry, Larry's materials can easily withstand that temperature range. In fact I operate above 122F and much higher. When the temperature rises the volts drop and the amps go up. Amps is the good guys and volts are the bad guys. To find out how much gas you are producing use the equation: No. of Cells X Amps X Resistence / 60 or get a 500 ml bottle, cut the bottom out and stick your hose into it with the cap on and time it. In one of me videos I am using a 5 cell brick with 10% KOH at 15 Amps and displacing 500 ml of water in 22 seconds. That works out to be about 1.36 lpm but my temperature is about 130F. In yet another video I am using two 5-cell bricks and getting above 2lpm

OxyHydrogen technology is in its infancy, but there are some shinning lights on the horizon. Most of the original work being done on OxyHydrogen is in Germany and Croatia, and most of the original work on Hydrogen separation is being done Australia and Belgium. I leave you with this quote from long ago:


"I believe that water will one day
be employed as fuel, that hydrogen
and oxygen which constitute it, used
singly or together, will furnish an
inexhaustible source of heat and
light, of an intensity of which coal
is not capable." - Jules Verne, Mystery Island

I am a Christian
08-27-2011 11:34 AM
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rickmay Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Water as Fuel?
Your video on u tube is the public one, and this post will get buried. You probably want to talk to Larry about your unexpected notoriety, or get your name off of u tube. I wouldn't worry, as there are many more B.E.s around.

I like that computer program you have, but a 1983 mercedes diesel has no computer. One guy that has been around a long time with HHO is Bob Boyce. I know nothing about him, but I saw a posting where someone indicated that Boyce said you only need so many liters of HHO per liter of engine. It was either .25 or .40 liters of HHO per liter of engine. My engine is 2.4 liters, which according to Boyce needs less than 1 liter of HHO production. If this is the case, why put a larger load on the alternator (more horsepower and diesel usage) to produce more HHO than you need?

With me in it and with a full tank of gas, I have a car that weighs 3,700-3,800 pounds and has 72 horsepower. According to my owners manual, the alternator produces only 55 amps at 14 volts if original. Now, I imagine that it has been replaced, but I have no clue what it is capable of producing. When considering air conditioning, I have to use a little caution in all of this, so I don't lose any more performance. These are not fast cars. If I did this, I am more inclined to go for Larry's latest 5 plate design or whatever it is. I just looked for this on Larry's website and cannot find it...the site is not well organized.

How did you reach the conclusion that the 11 cell gets up to speed faster? How long before it is at full production? When I look at Larry's photos some of these things look open on the narrow sides.

It takes an incredible amount of hydrogen to run a car solely on HHO. Even the car the government built in the mid 1970s, I figured, used about 156 liters of HHO with a leaned out gasoline mixture. This was a totally different animal than what we are talking about here. Obviously, right now, there is no way for you and I to produce this much hydrogen. In my case, my car has a 22:1 compression ratio, so my diesel has to draw twice the air as a gasoline engine to function under usual circumstances. And maybe, this makes a case for doubling Boyces estimate as to how much HHO you need. Given a paltry 1.5 liters or even 5 liters a minute, versus what was done above by our miserable government, it makes me question if there is any benefit to producing much more than 1/2 liter to a liter for my particular car. My brain tells me that the purpose of adding hydrogen is NOT to run the car, but to make my combustion process more efficient (I am not talking about pollution, but how much more efficient (greater MPG) my car would be whether adding a 1/2 liter or 4 liters or more HHO). In other words, any more HHO than Boyce reccommends is wasted on the increased demand of producing it. I think this even with your truck. My gut says that all you need is the 1.5 liter production you have now, and not the four extra bricks you mentioned earlier. And with a larger air draw, maybe I need twice what Boyce indicates.
08-27-2011 02:14 PM
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Water as Fuel?
(08-27-2011 02:14 PM)rickmay Wrote:  Your video on u tube is the public one, and this post will get buried. You probably want to talk to Larry about your unexpected notoriety, or get your name off of u tube. I wouldn't worry, as there are many more B.E.s around.

I like that computer program you have, but a 1983 mercedes diesel has no computer. One guy that has been around a long time with HHO is Bob Boyce. I know nothing about him, but I saw a posting where someone indicated that Boyce said you only need so many liters of HHO per liter of engine. It was either .25 or .40 liters of HHO per liter of engine. My engine is 2.4 liters, which according to Boyce needs less than 1 liter of HHO production. If this is the case, why put a larger load on the alternator (more horsepower and diesel usage) to produce more HHO than you need?

With me in it and with a full tank of gas, I have a car that weighs 3,700-3,800 pounds and has 72 horsepower. According to my owners manual, the alternator produces only 55 amps at 14 volts if original. Now, I imagine that it has been replaced, but I have no clue what it is capable of producing. When considering air conditioning, I have to use a little caution in all of this, so I don't lose any more performance. These are not fast cars. If I did this, I am more inclined to go for Larry's latest 5 plate design or whatever it is. I just looked for this on Larry's website and cannot find it...the site is not well organized.

How did you reach the conclusion that the 11 cell gets up to speed faster? How long before it is at full production? When I look at Larry's photos some of these things look open on the narrow sides.

It takes an incredible amount of hydrogen to run a car solely on HHO. Even the car the government built in the mid 1970s, I figured, used about 156 liters of HHO with a leaned out gasoline mixture. This was a totally different animal than what we are talking about here. Obviously, right now, there is no way for you and I to produce this much hydrogen. In my case, my car has a 22:1 compression ratio, so my diesel has to draw twice the air as a gasoline engine to function under usual circumstances. And maybe, this makes a case for doubling Boyces estimate as to how much HHO you need. Given a paltry 1.5 liters or even 5 liters a minute, versus what was done above by our miserable government, it makes me question if there is any benefit to producing much more than 1/2 liter to a liter for my particular car. My brain tells me that the purpose of adding hydrogen is NOT to run the car, but to make my combustion process more efficient (I am not talking about pollution, but how much more efficient (greater MPG) my car would be whether adding a 1/2 liter or 4 liters or more HHO). In other words, any more HHO than Boyce reccommends is wasted on the increased demand of producing it. I think this even with your truck. My gut says that all you need is the 1.5 liter production you have now, and not the four extra bricks you mentioned earlier. And with a larger air draw, maybe I need twice what Boyce indicates.


I have heard of Boyce but don't know anything about him. If you want to follow him is ok with me. I am convinced that with 2 lpm I can not only remove all the carbon from my engine so that it runs cooler and quieter but also I can increase my mpgs, torque, hp and reduce emissions.

It makes no sense to me to continue using it in my vehicle since I will soon have to add an EFIE to make up for the ECU adding more fuel since it sees too much O2 at the O2 sensors. I will use the 2 lpm to clean out the carbon from time to time so that my injectors, rings, pistons and valves remain clean.

I will concentrate on using it on stationary equipment that run at constant RPMs like power generators, etc.

I have removed all my videos since you found them offensive.

Thanks for your imput and advice and good luck with that boyce guy.

I am a Christian
08-27-2011 09:00 PM
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rickmay Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Water as Fuel?
This website is screwed up. I have put in attachments, yet it shows I have none. the back button doesn't always work. I just lost everything I wrote you Amos33, and it ticks me off. So this response will be abreviated and may sound curt, but not intended to be.

I don't care about Boyce, as he is on to bigger and better things to fry. Logic tells me that he is correct in saying that there are diminishing returns doing this HHO cell. It seems far more important to do it correctly, and to introduce the HHO in the optimum spot.

There was never any intention on my part to say your video was offensive, and I don't think I did so, anyway. There is so much folly and lies on the internet re HHO, it is laughable, and hard to tell good from bad. The people that don't respond to you probably don't want to talk to you in the first place because that which they are peddling is a lie in the first place. Put your video back online and scrub the advertisement look, as you may be hurting Larry's prospects for sales. If it looks like you an Larry are working together, people might just walk away. You are an honest guy, and I know this is not your intent. Just say that you used Larry's product and that it has done great things for your truck, and that you posted the video because HHO works, and you want everyone to know about it.

My brain tells me that Boyce is correct in saying that you need only so many liters of HHO to maximize MPG. If increasing HHO beyond that decreasing emissions, that is not my intent. Further, any excess HHO only makes the system potentially more dangerous, and it certainly adds to the drain on the horsepower and efficiency when you draw those added amps. In my case, it seems to make more sense to work backwards on this. My Nissan Versa SL is a whole foot taller than my 1983 mercedes, 240D. I have little room under the hood. I was thinking about the area behind my passenger side headlight, as it is on the same side as my air valve. The trouble is, space is limited, and it is only 11-12" tall from body to hood. So much for putting a reservoir 12 inches above the cell. So Larrys 5 plate does what Boyce suggests, and that is probably all I have room for. I still have to figure out the reservoir. Further, if my alternator is only 55 amps at 14v, I don't even want to use 25% of its capacity which is 13-14 amps.

I would also like to point something out to you. You indicated that you are new to this (but far ahead of me), and that your mileage increased from 20 to 30, or whatever it was. BUT, then you also said that you needed to add an EFIE "to maintain" that mileage (see your earlier post). If your computer was working properly, you probably should not have received such a large gain in mileage in the first place. Think about it. If your computer read less emmissions, or whatever, through an O2 sensor, it would have immediately added more fuel, and you would not have received a significant gain in mileage. It could be that your computer is not functioning properly, or your laptop software was misleading you. Have you actually checked your mileage the old fashioned way?

There is something else I do not understand. Why do people have to hide behind a pseudonym on the internet, anyway. I am Rick May, and I am proud of it.
08-28-2011 07:56 AM
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Water as Fuel?
(08-28-2011 07:56 AM)rickmay Wrote:  This website is screwed up. I have put in attachments, yet it shows I have none. the back button doesn't always work. I just lost everything I wrote you Amos33, and it ticks me off. So this response will be abreviated and may sound curt, but not intended to be.

I don't care about Boyce, as he is on to bigger and better things to fry. Logic tells me that he is correct in saying that there are diminishing returns doing this HHO cell. It seems far more important to do it correctly, and to introduce the HHO in the optimum spot.

There was never any intention on my part to say your video was offensive, and I don't think I did so, anyway. There is so much folly and lies on the internet re HHO, it is laughable, and hard to tell good from bad. The people that don't respond to you probably don't want to talk to you in the first place because that which they are peddling is a lie in the first place. Put your video back online and scrub the advertisement look, as you may be hurting Larry's prospects for sales. If it looks like you an Larry are working together, people might just walk away. You are an honest guy, and I know this is not your intent. Just say that you used Larry's product and that it has done great things for your truck, and that you posted the video because HHO works, and you want everyone to know about it.

My brain tells me that Boyce is correct in saying that you need only so many liters of HHO to maximize MPG. If increasing HHO beyond that decreasing emissions, that is not my intent. Further, any excess HHO only makes the system potentially more dangerous, and it certainly adds to the drain on the horsepower and efficiency when you draw those added amps. In my case, it seems to make more sense to work backwards on this. My Nissan Versa SL is a whole foot taller than my 1983 mercedes, 240D. I have little room under the hood. I was thinking about the area behind my passenger side headlight, as it is on the same side as my air valve. The trouble is, space is limited, and it is only 11-12" tall from body to hood. So much for putting a reservoir 12 inches above the cell. So Larrys 5 plate does what Boyce suggests, and that is probably all I have room for. I still have to figure out the reservoir. Further, if my alternator is only 55 amps at 14v, I don't even want to use 25% of its capacity which is 13-14 amps.

I would also like to point something out to you. You indicated that you are new to this (but far ahead of me), and that your mileage increased from 20 to 30, or whatever it was. BUT, then you also said that you needed to add an EFIE "to maintain" that mileage (see your earlier post). If your computer was working properly, you probably should not have received such a large gain in mileage in the first place. Think about it. If your computer read less emmissions, or whatever, through an O2 sensor, it would have immediately added more fuel, and you would not have received a significant gain in mileage. It could be that your computer is not functioning properly, or your laptop software was misleading you. Have you actually checked your mileage the old fashioned way?

There is something else I do not understand. Why do people have to hide behind a pseudonym on the internet, anyway. I am Rick May, and I am proud of it.

This is getting too long but let me be brief: The ECU (computer) learns from all the sensors it monitors. If I zero it out and try my OxyHydrogen it will run as expected for awhile until the ECU starts adding Fuel because of the diminished hydrocarbons in the output read by the O2 sensors. It's not that I am adding O2 to the mix, it's that with 98% efficiency in the combustion cycle there's almost nothing left but O2. The computer tries to maintain the 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio and will begin to dump more fuel in the combustion chamber. It learns as it goes along so to speak and tries to keep that ratio. If this is confusing it's ok, not sure I understand it perfectly either. But there will come a point when I must add a EFIE to compensate for what the ECU is doing to the A/F mix. If the O2 sensor sends 0.2 to the ECU showing the mix is lean, the EFIE can add 0.25 to that so the computer will read a 0.45 which is just on the rich side and I can continue lean enhancing the fuel with my 2 lpm.

Sorry if I disagree with Mr. Boyce, but I am convinced that I need 2 lpm at constant RPM to see real fuel savings and only when I am in cruise control do i use it.

I made some videos which I will not show using my 2.4 hp electrical power generator that normally burns 20 ml of gasoline in 1.5 minutes but when it add OxyHydrogen at 2 lpm it burns 20 ml of gasoline in 3 minutes thereby extending the run time on the same amount of gasoline and that is where I will concentrate me efforts. I will explore industrial size OxyHydrogen generators for use by farmers, ranchers, construction crews and tool pushers on jackup oil rigs. Since I live in Texas we are all hard hit by drought and high temperatures like 106.5 F today. So I will be leaving the automobile side and concentrate on the other side with stationary equipment that runs at constant RPM like generators, pumps, compressors and irrigation systems.

Perhaps I will relegate the M4 I have built to carbon cleaning the engines of old pickup trucks here in the hottest state in the union. I inject 2 lpm and 40 minutes later the engine internals are clean and nothing coming out of the tailpipe but O2, CO2 and a few drops of water and that old Texas truck is now ready for emissions testing with longer times between oil changes and California Compliant for Emissions Testing. Wish some mechanic would pickup on this aspect of OxyHydrogen...but we'll see.

I am comtemplating using OxyHydrogen to input to a Water from Air machine that normally only works when the humidity is 40% or higher but I must take care that it does not ignite somewhere internally. I don't know yet, but I will think about it for a few months first. I have the machine that does this but it's been too hot for humidity of late. I comtemplate buiding a rough OxyHydrogen generator that can accept water from the creek and generate OxyHydrogen fog to be fed into my Water from Air machine so the famer can have a cool drink of pure water in the heat of the day. I will also use Solar and Wind to power that standalone machine. But...we'll see..

But never forget I am a newbi to HHO and a exVideo makerSmile and I try to remain anonymous and am curterous to curt responses, at least I try to be.

As to the old fashioned way of filling up and driving then refilling to determine the amount of mpg I am getting, frankly, I cannot afford to do that so I am dependant upon my OBDLink to analyze everthing for me.

I am a Christian
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2011 10:56 AM by amos33.)
08-28-2011 10:51 AM
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rickmay Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Water as Fuel?
You're a good guy, amos.

If I move forward, I will try to get back with you when I know the results.

Good luck with your efforts.

Rick
08-28-2011 05:15 PM
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Water as Fuel?
(08-28-2011 05:15 PM)rickmay Wrote:  You're a good guy, amos.

If I move forward, I will try to get back with you when I know the results.

Good luck with your efforts.

Rick

Thanks Rick, good luck with yours too and remember, be safe.

I am a Christian
08-28-2011 05:27 PM
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rpatzer Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Water as Fuel?
amos you said-
"This is getting too long but let me be brief: The ECU (computer) learns from all the sensors it monitors. If I zero it out"
I am not sure what you mean by zeroing it out. The purpose is to lean out the mixture for better mileage and the only way to bypass the ECU is to use the EFIE. That will add voltage to the O2 senser giving a rich reading to the ECU which would then lean out to try to maintain the 14.7:1 ratio. However, the leaner you make the mix, the more O2 you produce which then combines with the N in the air producing the various Oxides of Nitrogen, one of them being smog.
I got smogged unofficially and all the variables were lower except the NOX reading which was high enough to fail me if that had been an official test. This is in CA.
I believe it is Honda with their Lean Burn Engine and their 21:1 ratio who fixed that problem by putting on a separate cat to take care of just the NOX.
08-28-2011 05:40 PM
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