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Water being sucked into engine?
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mikaya Offline
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Post: #1
Water being sucked into engine?
OK, before I start, let me make it clear that I really only understand the very basics of this stuff. So please, if you answer this, phrase your answers so that an ignorant person can understand them. Thank you!

I built a unit according to Gas4free, with a series of 11 plates. They said to put 6 teaspoons of salt in the mix, but when I use any salt at all, it blows the fuse. So I am using a mix of one teaspoon hydrogen peroxide with distilled water. Stainless steel was used in all the construction. Still, it very quickly produced what looks like rust. Is this likely to be a problem?

It still works - at least it bubbles like hell. What concerns me is that the see-through hose carrying the hydrogen to the intake manifold has bubbles of condensation on its walls, so it seems to be sucking water into the engine. This only happens at high revs. I have tried to limit this by closing off the air intake valve that I installed in the top of the hydrolyzer - and that does seem to have helped. But it still pulls water after freeway driving.

It appears to pull water through even when the hydrolyzer itself is turned off. This unit has a bubbler chamber that the hydrogen passes through before it gets to the engine, and I have started leaving that empty. But presumably, if it is pulling water from the bubbler chamber, it'll pull it from the hydrolyzer too.

When it's on, the unit uses a lot of water anyway - it's half empty after about fifty miles of freeway driving. What causes it to use more or less water?

Anyone got any ideas? Gas4free supposedly have on-line support - but so far they have never answered the questions I have submitted.

Mikaya
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2008 06:49 PM by mikaya.)
11-08-2008 06:47 PM
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JET USA Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Water being sucked into engine?
mikaya Wrote:OK, before I start, let me make it clear that I really only understand the very basics of this stuff. So please, if you answer this, phrase your answers so that an ignorant person can understand them. Thank you!

I built a unit according to Gas4free, with a series of 11 plates. They said to put 6 teaspoons of salt in the mix, but when I use any salt at all, it blows the fuse. So I am using a mix of one teaspoon hydrogen peroxide with distilled water. Stainless steel was used in all the construction. Still, it very quickly produced what looks like rust. Is this likely to be a problem?

It still works - at least it bubbles like hell. What concerns me is that the see-through hose carrying the hydrogen to the intake manifold has bubbles of condensation on its walls, so it seems to be sucking water into the engine. This only happens at high revs. I have tried to limit this by closing off the air intake valve that I installed in the top of the hydrolyzer - and that does seem to have helped. But it still pulls water after freeway driving.

It appears to pull water through even when the hydrolyzer itself is turned off. This unit has a bubbler chamber that the hydrogen passes through before it gets to the engine, and I have started leaving that empty. But presumably, if it is pulling water from the bubbler chamber, it'll pull it from the hydrolyzer too.

When it's on, the unit uses a lot of water anyway - it's half empty after about fifty miles of freeway driving. What causes it to use more or less water?

Anyone got any ideas? Gas4free supposedly have on-line support - but so far they have never answered the questions I have submitted.

Mikaya

Hello Mikaya.
May I welcome you to these forums. If you spend some time reading here you will find that there is lots of information that is offered here for free. It is a place where we all share our successes and our mis-adventures as well.
I started working on this concept last May this year, and got my own website started. It is http://waterworks4fuel.com.
I am not familliar with gas4free system. I can tell you that we bought two of the guides and then proceded to build my own hommade designs.

1. I have found that drawing a vacuum on your cell /s is unnecessary because the intake filter box will take in all the gas you can produce. Less vacuum will allow the water to stay in the cell without vaporizing. A little vapor is ok, but you do not want NaOH or KOH electrolyte in an engine that has aluminum parts. Sodium Hydroxide does attack aluminum.

2. secondly all the odd electrolytes are not the best either. Baking soda will make an ugly red [Iron Oxide] deposit on everything in your cell and hoses. It looks like red brown mud.

3. The cell configuration is also important. Keeping the cell space voltage below 3 volts is also important. Use of neutral plates or making a set of series cells get the voltage down. 5 spaces [by using 4 neutral plates] seems to work best. 4 neutral plates give you 2.76 volts per space at 13.8v applied. 5 neutrals give a 2.3v per cell.
The water trap / bubbler is also necessary. It also serves as protection for a flash stop. Some people use two. If you have concerns about the koh or NaOH getting to the engine, you can put some vinager in the water in the last trap to neutralize the caustic. just a thought.

5. Another thing that should be considered is a flash back arrestor. One can be constructed out of a 4" length of 3/8" size copper or brass pipe packed with bronze wool. Keep the hose short and small [1/4"] from the flash arrestor to the filter box.

11 plates work out very well as a configuration [+NNNN-NNNN+]
You can see my pictures and explore my site at http://waterworks4fuel.com/pictures.html and see the second page too. There is also info about electrolytes there. http://waterworks4fuel.com/Electrolyte.html

add concentration of the el--yte slowly till the amps comes up to where you want. I do not recommend b-soda of anything other than NaOH or KOH, and water. If you have minerals in yours then consider distilled.water. or rain water.
see about the efie as well on the products page. You are welcome


FIXED THE LINKS !!!

signed JT Jim

Ps: Maybe I should write a book to set people straight on what works. I am glad to help.

http://Jet-USA.com
"Those who say" " It cannot be done"
"should get out of the way of those who are doing it"[/size][/align]
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2008 10:53 PM by JET USA.)
11-08-2008 10:21 PM
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mikaya Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Water being sucked into engine?
JET USA Wrote:
mikaya Wrote:OK, before I start, let me make it clear that I really only understand the very basics of this stuff. So please, if you answer this, phrase your answers so that an ignorant person can understand them. Thank you!

I built a unit according to Gas4free, with a series of 11 plates. They said to put 6 teaspoons of salt in the mix, but when I use any salt at all, it blows the fuse. So I am using a mix of one teaspoon hydrogen peroxide with distilled water. Stainless steel was used in all the construction. Still, it very quickly produced what looks like rust. Is this likely to be a problem?

It still works - at least it bubbles like hell. What concerns me is that the see-through hose carrying the hydrogen to the intake manifold has bubbles of condensation on its walls, so it seems to be sucking water into the engine. This only happens at high revs. I have tried to limit this by closing off the air intake valve that I installed in the top of the hydrolyzer - and that does seem to have helped. But it still pulls water after freeway driving.

It appears to pull water through even when the hydrolyzer itself is turned off. This unit has a bubbler chamber that the hydrogen passes through before it gets to the engine, and I have started leaving that empty. But presumably, if it is pulling water from the bubbler chamber, it'll pull it from the hydrolyzer too.

When it's on, the unit uses a lot of water anyway - it's half empty after about fifty miles of freeway driving. What causes it to use more or less water?

Anyone got any ideas? Gas4free supposedly have on-line support - but so far they have never answered the questions I have submitted.

Mikaya

Hello Mikaya.
May I welcome you to these forums. If you spend some time reading here you will find that there is lots of information that is offered here for free. It is a place where we all share our successes and our mis-adventures as well.
I started working on this concept last May this year, and got my own website started. It is http://waterworks4fuel.com.
I am not familliar with gas4free system. I can tell you that we bought two of the guides and then proceded to build my own hommade designs.

1. I have found that drawing a vacuum on your cell /s is unnecessary because the intake filter box will take in all the gas you can produce. Less vacuum will allow the water to stay in the cell without vaporizing. A little vapor is ok, but you do not want NaOH or KOH electrolyte in an engine that has aluminum parts. Sodium Hydroxide does attack aluminum.

2. secondly all the odd electrolytes are not the best either. Baking soda will make an ugly red [Iron Oxide] deposit on everything in your cell and hoses. It looks like red brown mud.

3. The cell configuration is also important. Keeping the cell space voltage below 3 volts is also important. Use of neutral plates or making a set of series cells get the voltage down. 5 spaces [by using 4 neutral plates] seems to work best. 4 neutral plates give you 2.76 volts per space at 13.8v applied. 5 neutrals give a 2.3v per cell.
The water trap / bubbler is also necessary. It also serves as protection for a flash stop. Some people use two.

5. Another thing that should be considered is a flash back arrestor. One can be constructed out of a 4" length of 3/8" size copper or brass pipe packed with bronze wool. Keep the hose short and small [1/4"] from the flash arrestor to the filter box.

11 plates work out very well as a configuration [+NNNN-NNNN+]
You can see my pictures and explore my site at http://waterworks4fuel.com/pictures.html and see the second page too. There is also info about electrolytes there.http://waterworks4fuel.com/electrolytes.html
add concentration of the el--yte slowly till the amps comes up to where you want. I do not recommend b-soda of anything other than NaOH or KOH, and water. If you have minerals in yours then consider distilled.water. or rain water.

signed JT Jim

Ps: Maybe I should write a book to set people straight on what works. I am glad to help.
11-08-2008 10:38 PM
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mikaya Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Water being sucked into engine?
OK, jetblue, thanks for your answers. now I have a few more questions!

[/quote]

1. I have found that drawing a vacuum on your cell /s is unnecessary because the intake filter box will take in all the gas you can produce.

What exactly do you mean by "drawing a vacuum'? And by the intake filter box, do you mean the intake line, between the air filter and the manifold? Are you saying that the suction created in that when the engine is running will suck in all the hydrogen that is being produced, and therefore it isn't necessary to have an air intake at the electrolyzer?


2. secondly all the odd electrolytes are not the best either. Baking soda will make an ugly red [Iron Oxide] deposit on everything in your cell and hoses. It looks like red brown mud.

Yes, I am only using hydrogen peroxide, and I have a great deal of brown mud! Is it important to clean that out?



3. The cell configuration is also important. Keeping the cell space voltage below 3 volts is also important. Use of neutral plates or making a set of series cells get the voltage down. 5 spaces [by using 4 neutral plates] seems to work best. 4 neutral plates give you 2.76 volts per space at 13.8v applied. 5 neutrals give a 2.3v per cell.

How can I test the voltage between the cells, or are you just calculating it by dividing the battery voltage by the number of spaces? Why is it important to keep that voltage down?

Is a neutral plate the same as a negative plate, that is, a plate that is wired up to the negative terminal of the battery? I have six negative plates with a positive plate in between each one - I believe that means they are wired in series, since all the positive plates are connected together and kept separate from all the negative plates, which are also all connected together.

And how do I test how much amperage the electrolyzer is drawing? Just put a multimeter across from negative terminal to positive terminal?

Thanks! Mikaya
11-08-2008 10:56 PM
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JET USA Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Water being sucked into engine?
mikaya Wrote:OK, jetblue, thanks for your answers. now I have a few more questions!
Its not JETblue. J E T are name initials.

1. I have found that drawing a vacuum on your cell /s is unnecessary because the intake filter box will take in all the gas you can produce.

What exactly do you mean by "drawing a vacuum'? And by the intake filter box, do you mean the intake line, between the air filter and the manifold? Are you saying that the suction created in that when the engine is running will suck in all the hydrogen that is being produced, and therefore it isn't necessary to have an air intake at the electrolyzer? {I do not have Air intake at the cell} not needed...
The engine will produce a high vacuum behind the throttle plate. It is better to inject it at the air cleaner ahead of the throttle instead. [outside at the air intake just before the filter inside the duct.] [where the suction is not high.]

2. secondly all the odd electrolytes are not the best either. Baking soda will make an ugly red [Iron Oxide] deposit on everything in your cell and hoses. It looks like red brown mud. result caused by the pure oxygen in the mix.

Yes, I am only using hydrogen peroxide, and I have a great deal of brown mud! Is it important to clean that out?

JT "I am now using only water and NaOH. It stays cleaner. You could add some alcohol for freezing weather. [no "rust Bloom"]

3. The cell configuration is also important. Keeping the cell space voltage below 3 volts is also important. Use of neutral plates or making a set of series cells get the voltage down. 5 spaces [by using 4 neutral plates] seems to work best. 4 neutral plates give you 2.76 volts per space at 13.8v applied. 5 neutrals give a 2.3v per cell.

How can I test the voltage between the cells, or are you just calculating it by dividing the battery voltage by the number of spaces? Why is it important to keep that voltage down? [anything above 3 volts is wasted making heat]

{Yes , You can calculate it but if you test it on a bench, You will see that it is true. You can Place it in a bucket of el--yte and put your meter across each space. [each plate] Water is a liquid resistor, and makes a voltage devider circuit. Total volts will devide by the number of spaces}

Is a neutral plate the same as a negative plate, that is, a plate that is wired up to the negative terminal of the battery? I have six negative plates with a positive plate in between each one - I believe that means they are wired in series, since all the positive plates are connected together and kept separate from all the negative plates, which are also all connected together.

{not the same as a negative plate}
{ A neutral plate [is/ are] connected to nothing electrically. It is suspended at an equal spacing between the two polerized plates.}

{By it's position, The neutral plate is in the water suspended by insulating material [non conductive] in the path of the electric current flow. Basicly electrons in the path pass through the water and knock the water molecules apart. as they go through each water space. each neutral plate is a step in that process.}

And how do I test how much amperage the electrolyzer is drawing? Just put a multimeter across from negative terminal to positive terminal? {NO} ( a volt meter can be connected across the cell to measure the volts) = (electrical Pressure)

[never across the cell. You hook up a amp meter in series with the cell to measure amps. The total flow must go through the amp meter because that is how a DC amp meter works.] JT

Thanks! Mikaya

http://Jet-USA.com
"Those who say" " It cannot be done"
"should get out of the way of those who are doing it"[/size][/align]
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2008 02:57 AM by JET USA.)
11-09-2008 02:43 AM
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JET USA Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Water being sucked into engine?
My apologies. I didn't realize that you didn't know some of this stuff. That's ok
We all learn by doing and asking questions.
These cells run way too hot if they are just placed negative to positive. This is why I suggested to set it up with the neutral [dummy] plates. Remember, If any of them short, you defeat the purpose.
I don't recommend using salt or baking soda. again , Please study the forum and look at my pictures [above message]
study the pictures of the "8 inch cell" on page 2 of my pictures 3"x5" plates.
http://waterworks4fuel.com/pictures2.html
Thanks.
JT

http://Jet-USA.com
"Those who say" " It cannot be done"
"should get out of the way of those who are doing it"[/size][/align]
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2008 03:18 AM by JET USA.)
11-09-2008 03:09 AM
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howiemandel Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Water being sucked into engine?
Using Vacuum in any form, be it water vapor, H2 or HHO, should be considered but ONLY after your knowledge of this stuff becomes, pretty "secure".
That being said,
1.) vacuum will keep your cell COOLER. I've tested this, with different builds.
2.) vacuum will produce MORE end use HHO. Is this factual? Im unable to say for sure, yes. However its logical using common sense and your eyesight to say that it in fact does create bigger bubbles, and MORE of them, then without vacuum.
3.) Vacuum will give more people HIGHER MPG, comparably speaking, then folks injecting elsewheres.
4.) vacuum "charges" the HHO and "changes" the hho. Is this favorable? More then likely, but not proven.
5.) vacuum has been proven again and again, not just here, but all over, to allow a stubborn car that needs o2 sensors, and other mods. Almost EVERY SINGLE VACUUM user, does not use any electronic mods, to "get" gains.
NOTE:, I get 12MPG GAIN, for the last OVER 5,000 miles, consistantly, no cel lights, no problems.
I can NOT sit here and proclaim VACUUM is king. I can only say its KING for me. I can also relate, that I have been "trollin'" this and other forums for months, and the big mileage getters, are the folks using vacuum, period. That is what I see. If you have retained all you have read here and other forums you might visit, you'll draw the same conclusion.
As far as ingesting nasty chems into the motor, which will "ATTACK" the engine. Think of a few things.
One. Hydrogen ATTACKS, or rather BONDS with most EVERYTHING within seconds. ( alot faster then it takes your hho to reach the burn point) Whats that doing to your engine? Is that a non issue? Also. Do you think that magically, a bubbler, and atmospheric injection is taking all the "nasties" out of your gas? If you do, you have a false sense of security. But so be it. That is your opinions.
Also. I didnt catch it, CJ, did, I believe, while NASA themselves were testing hydrogen, they did so using vacuum. Do you think they did that, simply, because? I dont think so. And neither should you.
While I cant post facts and figures, I can only attest to my own results, and the results, while believing they are true, of hundreds of other posters, vacuum is indeed, better for many, many reasons.
The ONLY possible arguement against it, would be the "nasty" chem injection. However, I believe you may or may not get that, doing any other sort of injection. The thing is, vacuum is just quicker and faster, and more of, which is why you MIGHT think it is doing worse. (which sorta extorts the thinking, of why its better, without saying so)
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2008 07:34 AM by howiemandel.)
11-09-2008 07:31 AM
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benny Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Water being sucked into engine?
howiemandel Wrote:Using Vacuum in any form, be it water vapor, H2 or HHO, should be considered but ONLY after your knowledge of this stuff becomes, pretty "secure".

There I agree with you 100%
That said, some observations on your post
Quote: 2.) vacuum will produce MORE end use HHO. Is this factual? Im unable to say for sure, yes. However its logical using common sense and your eyesight to say that it in fact does create bigger bubbles, and MORE of them, then without vacuum.
Should be relatively easy to prove whether vacuum does or does not produce more HHO than non use of vacuum. Attach a small pump to the HHO line to draw the HHO from your generator. This will produce partial vacuum in your HHO line in the same manner that the engine of your vehicle does. Feed the output HHO from the pump into a water bottle measuring device measure output. There should be no pressure build up in the measuring bottle which therefore HHO therein will be at ambient air pressure, and which should give results which can be then directly compared with HHO production without vacuum.

Quote:4.) vacuum "charges" the HHO and "changes" the hho. Is this favorable? More then likely, but not proven.

Charges?
New one on me.
Hope the charges are less than gas station charges for gas/petrol


Quote:NASA themselves were testing hydrogen, they did so using vacuum. Do you think they did that, simply, because? I dont think so.

NASA. North American Space Agency. Name should tell you something.
Space equates to vacuum
Could that possibly be the reason that NASA experimented with vacuum/hydrogen
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2008 08:06 AM by benny.)
11-09-2008 08:05 AM
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JET USA Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Water being sucked into engine?
Howie and all
Thank you for your input. It seems that I have sparked some debate here. What I didn't say is that vacuum doesn't work. I just said that a high vacuum isn't necessary for the hho system to work. There will be sufficient vacuum at the air filter to pull in all the hho you can produce. Maybe the technique of bubbling the air into the cell will help in the release of the gasses from the plates, but I believe It doesn't make hho any faster than the cell does by electrolysis. It may facilitate the removal of bubbles that linger on the surface of the plates. That will in turn clear the space for more el--yte to make contact and thus make more bubbles.

Consider the "brick" type cells.[also called "dry cells". Those cells use a circulation system to allow the water to circulate from the tank to the bottom of the brick and then the gas and water mix rises in the cell and self pumps to the top and bubbles up in the reservoir bubbler. It simply wouldn't work to inject air into that cell. As for the matter of running cooler, Yes the air will cool the liquid some as well as dislodge the bubbles. I am planning to try building a brick for my own experiment. [similar to the "sid's cell".] What I was doing here was to help a [newbie] fellow experimenter to learn more about what he is trying to do, and get past some of the [pitfalls] and problems and misunderstandings.

Have you ever heard of (HKU) University of hard Knocks?

We were talking about drawing the liquid electrolyte into the engine, {Ingesting the electrolyte} in this thread. I bought the book published by ""water 4 Gas" earlier in the year before I got started doing this hho stuff. I read the subject on the use of a bubbler alone to create a water mist to inject water into the engine intake. That is another topic that could be explored.

I never finished the Water4Gas cell with the Plastic tower center in the fruit jar. After analyzing the total square inch surface, I decided that there just isn't enough to make it practical. That is when I started to build the plate designs. In those cells, they use air injection in that design. I am not using air injection. I get [in some of my cells] over 1 liter per minute hho wiithout the air injection. Another point in athe water4Gas design, is the fact that the cell has only two elements. That creates a hot cell because energy is wasted malking heat [Way above the 2 volts per space concept] I learned that the hard way by testing and building.
I installed one of those w4g cells for a friend and I got the report that he had a meltdown because of the heat even though it had the air bubbler input. It is necessary to have multiple cells to reduce the heating factor. It wouldn't be unreasonable to have 6 of those cells in series [or at least 3]. They do work somewhat but not like the plate cells.

We are not doing "Rocket Science" here. They use liquid oxygen and presureized hydrogen. We are not even close to what NASA is doing. They are not using vacuum at all. It is simply mixing the gasses as liquid expansion and burnning to make expanded gas for a rocket propulsion. Like I said, That is not what we are doing at all.

I got to go now . Thanks for your input guys. We learn by discussion and doing it for real. so thanks again. If you find that you disagree with what I have said, that is ok by me. Let the facts be proven by working it out. The "smack" cells work. The "sid" cells work. So have fun and do what works for you.

JT

http://Jet-USA.com
"Those who say" " It cannot be done"
"should get out of the way of those who are doing it"[/size][/align]
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2008 11:17 AM by JET USA.)
11-09-2008 10:19 AM
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Yodamaker Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Water being sucked into engine?
Wow!

So much information, lol. If you dont at least have a bubbler the vacuum will tend to suck the water into the tube and eventually the engine. I have designed a bubbler that will all but eliminate that possibility (attached image). These are important safety devices! If you dont have one, build one, or buy one. There should also be at least one check valve between the HHO generator and the engine. I sell these so let me know if you would like to buy one. I don't profit on this stuff, I only look to cover costs of parts and labor.


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89 Ford Probe 4cyl 51mpg/hwy
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(This post was last modified: 11-09-2008 11:16 AM by Yodamaker.)
11-09-2008 10:46 AM
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