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Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
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learntcm Offline
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Question Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
[size=large] Hi I am fairly new here, so any help will be much appreciated. I made a wet cell 11 plates in water filter housing. The housing hold around 750ml of water. The plates are arranged -nnnn+nnnn-. I crossed hatched them well and cleaned them with white vinegar; I added distilled water and 2 tea spoons of NaOH electrolyte, its drawing around 6 amps. I have a PWM attached and also two bubblers.

It seems to be producing ample HHO but the terminals get really hot and I am sure they will burn a hole in the lid of the housing. I read people use them up to 20 Amps

Also would appriciate an email reply
03-18-2010 07:55 AM
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jbalat Offline
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RE: Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
Is the water heating up also ? If so you could also add an extra neutral plate per side.

My initial thoughts are that you dont have enough water. My housing contained about 4 ltrs of water and was draining up to 30 amps without overheating.

An easy way around this is to add another container (2 ltrs+) located above the height of your cell to feed it water near the bottom of your cell. The hho should also go in to the bottom of the container but on the opposite side. Your bubbler would then be connected to the top of your container. This will allow the extra water to circulate from your container into the cell.

Look at your electrical connections and make sure there is minimal resistance, ie. at least 6mm bolts, 20Amp wiring, etc.

Do you have any photos you can attach ?
03-18-2010 07:58 PM
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learntcm Offline
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Toungue RE: Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
Thank you for your response, you may be right about not having enough water. My electrical connection was loose on one terminal and that was the one which got most hot. Nevertheless the problem is still there and the water also gets pretty hot.

The wire is 30 amps and the bolts are 8mm. I got 25amp fuse and today what happened is the fuse holder got so hot that the fuse and the holder got melted and luckily the fuse blew. The housing is in the boot and the fuse is under the bonnet so far away from the generator, I was only drawing 11 amps maximum, I wonder why the fuse and the holder got melted. The fuse holder was rated at 30amp with 25amp fuse. I have got a 30 amp PWM fitted as you will see in the photo. I got 2 bubblers, one with 3 different kinds of filling as you can see in the photo. My idea is that the HHO comes out of the generator and go in to the small clear bubbler from which I can see how much HHO is produced, it then goes to another bubbler with three kinds of filling, this is to stop any moisture being sucked by the engine. I hope some of this make sense to you.

I have been fiddling about with wet cell for last 6 months and I could not get it right, always the heat problem. Now I have 11 plates 2”x8”, I was wondering if I cut the size of the plates down to 2x4 and use the same housing to make small amount of HHO for a 1000cc vehicle, will that work?

I purchased a full sheet of 304 and foolishly got it all cut to 8x2” for the wet cell, now I want to make a dry cell and I wish to use the same plates. I want to drill a hole in the centre about 11/2” from bottom and 2 holes on the side about 1/4 up from bottom, so the centre one will be the feed in and two sides one will be feed out.. See what happens, if any one have any experiences please advise me on the dry cell.

Thank you all again.


(03-18-2010 07:58 PM)jbalat Wrote:  Is the water heating up also ? If so you could also add an extra neutral plate per side.

My initial thoughts are that you dont have enough water. My housing contained about 4 ltrs of water and was draining up to 30 amps without overheating.

An easy way around this is to add another container (2 ltrs+) located above the height of your cell to feed it water near the bottom of your cell. The hho should also go in to the bottom of the container but on the opposite side. Your bubbler would then be connected to the top of your container. This will allow the extra water to circulate from your container into the cell.

Look at your electrical connections and make sure there is minimal resistance, ie. at least 6mm bolts, 20Amp wiring, etc.

Do you have any photos you can attach ?

                                                       
03-21-2010 07:42 AM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
(03-21-2010 07:42 AM)learntcm Wrote:  Thank you for your response, you may be right about not having enough water. My electrical connection was loose on one terminal and that was the one which got most hot. Nevertheless the problem is still there and the water also gets pretty hot.

The wire is 30 amps and the bolts are 8mm. I got 25amp fuse and today what happened is the fuse holder got so hot that the fuse and the holder got melted and luckily the fuse blew. The housing is in the boot and the fuse is under the bonnet so far away from the generator, I was only drawing 11 amps maximum, I wonder why the fuse and the holder got melted. The fuse holder was rated at 30amp with 25amp fuse. I have got a 30 amp PWM fitted as you will see in the photo. I got 2 bubblers, one with 3 different kinds of filling as you can see in the photo. My idea is that the HHO comes out of the generator and go in to the small clear bubbler from which I can see how much HHO is produced, it then goes to another bubbler with three kinds of filling, this is to stop any moisture being sucked by the engine. I hope some of this make sense to you.

I have been fiddling about with wet cell for last 6 months and I could not get it right, always the heat problem. Now I have 11 plates 2”x8”, I was wondering if I cut the size of the plates down to 2x4 and use the same housing to make small amount of HHO for a 1000cc vehicle, will that work?

I purchased a full sheet of 304 and foolishly got it all cut to 8x2” for the wet cell, now I want to make a dry cell and I wish to use the same plates. I want to drill a hole in the centre about 11/2” from bottom and 2 holes on the side about 1/4 up from bottom, so the centre one will be the feed in and two sides one will be feed out.. See what happens, if any one have any experiences please advise me on the dry cell.

Thank you all again.


(03-18-2010 07:58 PM)jbalat Wrote:  Is the water heating up also ? If so you could also add an extra neutral plate per side.

My initial thoughts are that you dont have enough water. My housing contained about 4 ltrs of water and was draining up to 30 amps without overheating.

An easy way around this is to add another container (2 ltrs+) located above the height of your cell to feed it water near the bottom of your cell. The hho should also go in to the bottom of the container but on the opposite side. Your bubbler would then be connected to the top of your container. This will allow the extra water to circulate from your container into the cell.

Look at your electrical connections and make sure there is minimal resistance, ie. at least 6mm bolts, 20Amp wiring, etc.

Do you have any photos you can attach ?

Those "crimp on" connections may be causing a lot of resistance; if they're copper or steel, peel back the insulation and solder the wire to the connector. If you blew a 25 amp fuse obviously your cell is drawing more than 25 amps. The hotter they get the more amps they draw. What gauge wire connects your cell to the relay or battery? With a trunk installation there's a lot of resistance in the wiring going all the way to the engine compartment in front. I'll bet your PWM gets so hot the solder becomes molten. That's because your electrolyte is so strong that it is capable of drawing 40 amps or even more. All the PWM does is shut the current on and off so the cell never gets the full 40 amps. It's like switching a fan on and off rapidly to make it go slower. After a while the switch gets hot; so too does the PWM. Try reducing the electrolyte concentration. That will reduce the amps, and also HHO production. How much HHO are you producing now and how big (in CC or cubic inches) is your engine? Gas or diesel? Year, make, model? Are you getting any mpg results?
03-21-2010 02:07 PM
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jbalat Offline
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RE: Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
Like Thomas says as the cell heats up it is drawing much more amps. It is highly unlikely you are only drawing 11 amps.
How are you measuring your amps if you have a PWM are you getting a true indication or just an rms ?

Why dont you unplug the PWM and run directly from the battery with the engine going. Then adjust your electrolyte so it only draws a maximum of say 20-25 amps when it is warm.. Then reconnect the PWM and see how you go.

Beware too any loose connection not only raise the current due to extra resistance but can be a source for sparking.. Especially if the unit is mounted in the boot.. Kaboom

Are you sure you dont have a short in your plates ??? What are those 2 bolts I see ?
(This post was last modified: 03-21-2010 02:54 PM by jbalat.)
03-21-2010 02:50 PM
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learntcm Offline
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RE: Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
Thomas thank you for your suggestions, I will get the crimps soldered or maybe remove them all together. I got a digital 30 Amp meter wired up and I also checked with my Multi meter and it starts to draw around 6 Amps when cold and go up to 11 Amps. Another thing is that it did not blow the 25 Amp fuse. The fuse holder got so hot it melted the fuse and then it blew. The PWM stayed pretty cool. May be 2 tea spoon of electrolyte is too much as I don’t have enough water. Only 750 ml.

I could not get an auto cable so I had to use a house hold wire which is pretty thick and can handle up to 40 amps.

I have not found a decent meter to measure my HHO, if you know of any please let me know.

My present car is Buick Excelle, 1600 cc, 2004, Petrol. Around city I got about 25% gain, On high way I got nearly 40%. I done 100 Km run 4 times.

I have also tried similar cell on a 1000cc Suzuki 1998 carburetor engine car, got 25% gain but the problem was exactly the same. Over heating, melting fuse holder, melting the relay plug and the cell terminal red hot even burned my finger with one. On that cell I only used 1/2 tea spoon of electrolyte. When I use the dry cell with same wiring and relays etc, no problem at all.

I will try and get few more photos which may help me and others with same problem,


(03-21-2010 02:07 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  
(03-21-2010 07:42 AM)learntcm Wrote:  Thank you for your response, you may be right about not having enough water. My electrical connection was loose on one terminal and that was the one which got most hot. Nevertheless the problem is still there and the water also gets pretty hot.

The wire is 30 amps and the bolts are 8mm. I got 25amp fuse and today what happened is the fuse holder got so hot that the fuse and the holder got melted and luckily the fuse blew. The housing is in the boot and the fuse is under the bonnet so far away from the generator, I was only drawing 11 amps maximum, I wonder why the fuse and the holder got melted. The fuse holder was rated at 30amp with 25amp fuse. I have got a 30 amp PWM fitted as you will see in the photo. I got 2 bubblers, one with 3 different kinds of filling as you can see in the photo. My idea is that the HHO comes out of the generator and go in to the small clear bubbler from which I can see how much HHO is produced, it then goes to another bubbler with three kinds of filling, this is to stop any moisture being sucked by the engine. I hope some of this make sense to you.

I have been fiddling about with wet cell for last 6 months and I could not get it right, always the heat problem. Now I have 11 plates 2”x8”, I was wondering if I cut the size of the plates down to 2x4 and use the same housing to make small amount of HHO for a 1000cc vehicle, will that work?

I purchased a full sheet of 304 and foolishly got it all cut to 8x2” for the wet cell, now I want to make a dry cell and I wish to use the same plates. I want to drill a hole in the centre about 11/2” from bottom and 2 holes on the side about 1/4 up from bottom, so the centre one will be the feed in and two sides one will be feed out.. See what happens, if any one have any experiences please advise me on the dry cell.

Thank you all again.


(03-18-2010 07:58 PM)jbalat Wrote:  Is the water heating up also ? If so you could also add an extra neutral plate per side.

My initial thoughts are that you dont have enough water. My housing contained about 4 ltrs of water and was draining up to 30 amps without overheating.

An easy way around this is to add another container (2 ltrs+) located above the height of your cell to feed it water near the bottom of your cell. The hho should also go in to the bottom of the container but on the opposite side. Your bubbler would then be connected to the top of your container. This will allow the extra water to circulate from your container into the cell.

Look at your electrical connections and make sure there is minimal resistance, ie. at least 6mm bolts, 20Amp wiring, etc.

Do you have any photos you can attach ?

Those "crimp on" connections may be causing a lot of resistance; if they're copper or steel, peel back the insulation and solder the wire to the connector. If you blew a 25 amp fuse obviously your cell is drawing more than 25 amps. The hotter they get the more amps they draw. What gauge wire connects your cell to the relay or battery? With a trunk installation there's a lot of resistance in the wiring going all the way to the engine compartment in front. I'll bet your PWM gets so hot the solder becomes molten. That's because your electrolyte is so strong that it is capable of drawing 40 amps or even more. All the PWM does is shut the current on and off so the cell never gets the full 40 amps. It's like switching a fan on and off rapidly to make it go slower. After a while the switch gets hot; so too does the PWM. Try reducing the electrolyte concentration. That will reduce the amps, and also HHO production. How much HHO are you producing now and how big (in CC or cubic inches) is your engine? Gas or diesel? Year, make, model? Are you getting any mpg results?
03-21-2010 04:13 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
(03-21-2010 04:13 PM)learntcm Wrote:  Thomas thank you for your suggestions, I will get the crimps soldered or maybe remove them all together. I got a digital 30 Amp meter wired up and I also checked with my Multi meter and it starts to draw around 6 Amps when cold and go up to 11 Amps. Another thing is that it did not blow the 25 Amp fuse. The fuse holder got so hot it melted the fuse and then it blew. The PWM stayed pretty cool. May be 2 tea spoon of electrolyte is too much as I don’t have enough water. Only 750 ml.

I could not get an auto cable so I had to use a house hold wire which is pretty thick and can handle up to 40 amps.

I have not found a decent meter to measure my HHO, if you know of any please let me know.

My present car is Buick Excelle, 1600 cc, 2004, Petrol. Around city I got about 25% gain, On high way I got nearly 40%. I done 100 Km run 4 times.

I have also tried similar cell on a 1000cc Suzuki 1998 carburetor engine car, got 25% gain but the problem was exactly the same. Over heating, melting fuse holder, melting the relay plug and the cell terminal red hot even burned my finger with one. On that cell I only used 1/2 tea spoon of electrolyte. When I use the dry cell with same wiring and relays etc, no problem at all.

I will try and get few more photos which may help me and others with same problem,


(03-21-2010 02:07 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  
(03-21-2010 07:42 AM)learntcm Wrote:  Thank you for your response, you may be right about not having enough water. My electrical connection was loose on one terminal and that was the one which got most hot. Nevertheless the problem is still there and the water also gets pretty hot.

The wire is 30 amps and the bolts are 8mm. I got 25amp fuse and today what happened is the fuse holder got so hot that the fuse and the holder got melted and luckily the fuse blew. The housing is in the boot and the fuse is under the bonnet so far away from the generator, I was only drawing 11 amps maximum, I wonder why the fuse and the holder got melted. The fuse holder was rated at 30amp with 25amp fuse. I have got a 30 amp PWM fitted as you will see in the photo. I got 2 bubblers, one with 3 different kinds of filling as you can see in the photo. My idea is that the HHO comes out of the generator and go in to the small clear bubbler from which I can see how much HHO is produced, it then goes to another bubbler with three kinds of filling, this is to stop any moisture being sucked by the engine. I hope some of this make sense to you.

I have been fiddling about with wet cell for last 6 months and I could not get it right, always the heat problem. Now I have 11 plates 2”x8”, I was wondering if I cut the size of the plates down to 2x4 and use the same housing to make small amount of HHO for a 1000cc vehicle, will that work?

I purchased a full sheet of 304 and foolishly got it all cut to 8x2” for the wet cell, now I want to make a dry cell and I wish to use the same plates. I want to drill a hole in the centre about 11/2” from bottom and 2 holes on the side about 1/4 up from bottom, so the centre one will be the feed in and two sides one will be feed out.. See what happens, if any one have any experiences please advise me on the dry cell.

Thank you all again.


(03-18-2010 07:58 PM)jbalat Wrote:  Is the water heating up also ? If so you could also add an extra neutral plate per side.

My initial thoughts are that you dont have enough water. My housing contained about 4 ltrs of water and was draining up to 30 amps without overheating.

An easy way around this is to add another container (2 ltrs+) located above the height of your cell to feed it water near the bottom of your cell. The hho should also go in to the bottom of the container but on the opposite side. Your bubbler would then be connected to the top of your container. This will allow the extra water to circulate from your container into the cell.

Look at your electrical connections and make sure there is minimal resistance, ie. at least 6mm bolts, 20Amp wiring, etc.

Do you have any photos you can attach ?

Those "crimp on" connections may be causing a lot of resistance; if they're copper or steel, peel back the insulation and solder the wire to the connector. If you blew a 25 amp fuse obviously your cell is drawing more than 25 amps. The hotter they get the more amps they draw. What gauge wire connects your cell to the relay or battery? With a trunk installation there's a lot of resistance in the wiring going all the way to the engine compartment in front. I'll bet your PWM gets so hot the solder becomes molten. That's because your electrolyte is so strong that it is capable of drawing 40 amps or even more. All the PWM does is shut the current on and off so the cell never gets the full 40 amps. It's like switching a fan on and off rapidly to make it go slower. After a while the switch gets hot; so too does the PWM. Try reducing the electrolyte concentration. That will reduce the amps, and also HHO production. How much HHO are you producing now and how big (in CC or cubic inches) is your engine? Gas or diesel? Year, make, model? Are you getting any mpg results?

Congratulations on your mpg gain. If it isn't broke don't fix it. The more I think about your fuse holder melting the more I think about bad connections in the fuse holder. Try circuit breakers; they're common here in the US; come in 20, 30 and 40 amp auto reset varieties. Jbalat had a good idea: Start cold with a little electrolyte and add as it heats up, stopping at about 20 amps at max temp. It may be all your heat problems are caused by a series of bad connections starting with the fuse, then the terminals, then perhaps the plates. Are your connections welded to your plates? Good luck.
03-22-2010 02:50 PM
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learntcm Offline
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RE: Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
I may have series of bad connections but the over heating and melting only happens with my wet cell. I have a dry cell with 11 plates and I can run that with the same wiring with out any problems. I feel I have a problem with my wet cell. I have attached some more detailed photos of my wet cell, please have a look to see if we can pin point any thing. I noticed that two of the plates have warped a little, maybe that I am using thin plates these are .9mm where as if I used 1/16" it should have been 1.58mm. Could this be the problem?. Bye the way the three screws holding the plates have insulated neoprene pipe on them

As for checking amps, I use a multi meter in series before the PWM is this correct?.

I also have a digital meter with Shunt and they both read the same amperage.

I noticed that every body wire there cell from the ignition, I always wired mine to come on only when the engine is running, so if I left the ignition on and engine not running it would not drain my battery. The easiest way for that is to take the supply to relay from the electronic fuel pump, nearly all modern cars have electronic fuel pumps and in case of older vehicles, there are two small wires coming from the alternator and one is live only when the alternator is turning, so hook it up to that one.

(03-22-2010 02:50 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  
(03-21-2010 04:13 PM)learntcm Wrote:  Thomas thank you for your suggestions, I will get the crimps soldered or maybe remove them all together. I got a digital 30 Amp meter wired up and I also checked with my Multi meter and it starts to draw around 6 Amps when cold and go up to 11 Amps. Another thing is that it did not blow the 25 Amp fuse. The fuse holder got so hot it melted the fuse and then it blew. The PWM stayed pretty cool. May be 2 tea spoon of electrolyte is too much as I don’t have enough water. Only 750 ml.

I could not get an auto cable so I had to use a house hold wire which is pretty thick and can handle up to 40 amps.

I have not found a decent meter to measure my HHO, if you know of any please let me know.

My present car is Buick Excelle, 1600 cc, 2004, Petrol. Around city I got about 25% gain, On high way I got nearly 40%. I done 100 Km run 4 times.

I have also tried similar cell on a 1000cc Suzuki 1998 carburetor engine car, got 25% gain but the problem was exactly the same. Over heating, melting fuse holder, melting the relay plug and the cell terminal red hot even burned my finger with one. On that cell I only used 1/2 tea spoon of electrolyte. When I use the dry cell with same wiring and relays etc, no problem at all.

I will try and get few more photos which may help me and others with same problem,


(03-21-2010 02:07 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  
(03-21-2010 07:42 AM)learntcm Wrote:  Thank you for your response, you may be right about not having enough water. My electrical connection was loose on one terminal and that was the one which got most hot. Nevertheless the problem is still there and the water also gets pretty hot.

The wire is 30 amps and the bolts are 8mm. I got 25amp fuse and today what happened is the fuse holder got so hot that the fuse and the holder got melted and luckily the fuse blew. The housing is in the boot and the fuse is under the bonnet so far away from the generator, I was only drawing 11 amps maximum, I wonder why the fuse and the holder got melted. The fuse holder was rated at 30amp with 25amp fuse. I have got a 30 amp PWM fitted as you will see in the photo. I got 2 bubblers, one with 3 different kinds of filling as you can see in the photo. My idea is that the HHO comes out of the generator and go in to the small clear bubbler from which I can see how much HHO is produced, it then goes to another bubbler with three kinds of filling, this is to stop any moisture being sucked by the engine. I hope some of this make sense to you.

I have been fiddling about with wet cell for last 6 months and I could not get it right, always the heat problem. Now I have 11 plates 2”x8”, I was wondering if I cut the size of the plates down to 2x4 and use the same housing to make small amount of HHO for a 1000cc vehicle, will that work?

I purchased a full sheet of 304 and foolishly got it all cut to 8x2” for the wet cell, now I want to make a dry cell and I wish to use the same plates. I want to drill a hole in the centre about 11/2” from bottom and 2 holes on the side about 1/4 up from bottom, so the centre one will be the feed in and two sides one will be feed out.. See what happens, if any one have any experiences please advise me on the dry cell.

Thank you all again.


(03-18-2010 07:58 PM)jbalat Wrote:  Is the water heating up also ? If so you could also add an extra neutral plate per side.

My initial thoughts are that you dont have enough water. My housing contained about 4 ltrs of water and was draining up to 30 amps without overheating.

An easy way around this is to add another container (2 ltrs+) located above the height of your cell to feed it water near the bottom of your cell. The hho should also go in to the bottom of the container but on the opposite side. Your bubbler would then be connected to the top of your container. This will allow the extra water to circulate from your container into the cell.

Look at your electrical connections and make sure there is minimal resistance, ie. at least 6mm bolts, 20Amp wiring, etc.

Do you have any photos you can attach ?

Those "crimp on" connections may be causing a lot of resistance; if they're copper or steel, peel back the insulation and solder the wire to the connector. If you blew a 25 amp fuse obviously your cell is drawing more than 25 amps. The hotter they get the more amps they draw. What gauge wire connects your cell to the relay or battery? With a trunk installation there's a lot of resistance in the wiring going all the way to the engine compartment in front. I'll bet your PWM gets so hot the solder becomes molten. That's because your electrolyte is so strong that it is capable of drawing 40 amps or even more. All the PWM does is shut the current on and off so the cell never gets the full 40 amps. It's like switching a fan on and off rapidly to make it go slower. After a while the switch gets hot; so too does the PWM. Try reducing the electrolyte concentration. That will reduce the amps, and also HHO production. How much HHO are you producing now and how big (in CC or cubic inches) is your engine? Gas or diesel? Year, make, model? Are you getting any mpg results?

Congratulations on your mpg gain. If it isn't broke don't fix it. The more I think about your fuse holder melting the more I think about bad connections in the fuse holder. Try circuit breakers; they're common here in the US; come in 20, 30 and 40 amp auto reset varieties. Jbalat had a good idea: Start cold with a little electrolyte and add as it heats up, stopping at about 20 amps at max temp. It may be all your heat problems are caused by a series of bad connections starting with the fuse, then the terminals, then perhaps the plates. Are your connections welded to your plates? Good luck.

                   
03-22-2010 06:59 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
(03-22-2010 06:59 PM)learntcm Wrote:  I may have series of bad connections but the over heating and melting only happens with my wet cell. I have a dry cell with 11 plates and I can run that with the same wiring with out any problems. I feel I have a problem with my wet cell. I have attached some more detailed photos of my wet cell, please have a look to see if we can pin point any thing. I noticed that two of the plates have warped a little, maybe that I am using thin plates these are .9mm where as if I used 1/16" it should have been 1.58mm. Could this be the problem?. Bye the way the three screws holding the plates have insulated neoprene pipe on them
That middle plate looks discolored and warped along with the top plate. I wonder if when the cell heats up the plates get distorted and touch thus causing a short?
03-23-2010 03:37 PM
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RE: Wet cell Terminals getting too hot
Have you tried doing a quick resistance check across the plates with your multimeter just to make sure there is no shorting.. Check 1 plate at a time with every other plate just in case your bolts are touching somewhere they shouldnt be. You can start at the terminals since there is a steel angle bracket across both terminals ??? What the ???

Also the middle plate does look quite bent so does the last one.. Your cell looks like a mess. The spacing should be exactly the same across each pair !!

You could also try running the unit in a bucket and measure the voltage across each adjacent set of plates to make sure you are getting a consistent voltage (roughly 2.7v) across each pair and not much variation.
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2010 04:16 PM by jbalat.)
03-23-2010 04:13 PM
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