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Wideband Sensors
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Sartech Offline
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Post: #1
Wideband Sensors
Hello gang,

I've been watching the forum the last couple of days and thought I would pass on some info you all might find helpful. Briefly, I am interested like you are in combustion enhancement technologies and find the hydroxy approach the most promising at the present time. I hope this contribution is helpful and the attachment I've included will clarify some things for you all. As you know, current fuel management technologies are complex and involve many variables. It is easy to get overwhelmed with trying to understand all that goes on in OBDII controlled systems.
The attachment is a copy of a dialogue I am having with the Eagle Research Group of which I am a member. We are searching out the same issues you are discussing right now with fuel management. It is simply my effort to compile some useful info for everyone interested in the subject.
Enjoy!

.doc  fuel mangement.doc (Size: 32.5 KB / Downloads: 68)
02-22-2008 11:35 AM
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qsiguy Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Tunning the car for HHO
Interesting reading, please keep us in the loop on your research.

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02-22-2008 12:09 PM
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mike Offline
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RE: Tunning the car for HHO
Ditto. And thanks for the kudos.

Do you have any more information on the linear signal of the AC/Delco MAF? Or a reference on how the signal is generated, and read (leading to how it might be modified)? I'm always on the lookout for further reading on the subject, if you have some good links on this.

Also, have you run into any good references on the wideband sensor's output signal? These are definitely the wave of the future, as they are just plain superior sensors. But I haven't been able to get my wits around how they communicate to the ECU, and how that information might be modified. I'm missing something basic on this one. If you haven't seen it yet, you should check out wbo2.com. The home page is singularly unimpressive, but browse through the links in the "Help and Info" tab. These are the best wideband references I've found so far.

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02-22-2008 12:41 PM
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Sartech Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Tunning the car for HHO
For those not familiar - these guys are hot and heavy into a full blown hydoxy system, with dealer network and the whole thing. I am on their email list and anyone can sign up. These are the guys with the optimizer I was talking about in my attachment. You can buy their covalyzer now.
http://update.jeffotto.com/
02-22-2008 01:49 PM
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qsiguy Offline
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RE: Tunning the car for HHO
I have a Zeitronics wideband unit for my Infiniti Q45 Turbo and it can provide a narrow band output to allow you to use it in place of a typical O2 sensor. Any current ECU made for a narrow band would not be able to accept a full wideband sensor's input. Many of these wideband setups have accommodations to offset the signal from the control unit if you want to mess with a/f ratios. I think they (tuners) would typically use that feature to richen up the mixture tho.

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02-22-2008 01:59 PM
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mike Offline
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RE: Tunning the car for HHO
Have you seen anything where guys are doing this?

From what I've studied up so far, wideband sensors basically rock. Narrow band sensors really are an on/off (2 value logic), whereas wideband sensors tell the ecu what the air/fuel ratio is (infinite value logic) at any given instant in time. It's bound to take over as time goes forward.

I'm not interested in the narrow band outputs, as the EFIE can be used on these. In other words, we already have the solution for this setup. However, I'm starting to get guys who have wideband sensors and with ECUs that use the wideband information. And I want to be able to steer them better than I currently am.

I have a confusion on how these signal the computer, that is probably from having read some conflicting data. But am still looking for good articles on this subject. And the simpler the better. The advanced articles seem to always leave out the simple basics of how the communication to the engine is actually achieved. I still have it in the back of my mind that an EFIE, or modified version thereof, may be able to provide precise a/f corrections using wideband sensors.

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02-22-2008 03:24 PM
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Sartech Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Tunning the car for HHO
mike Wrote:Ditto. And thanks for the kudos.

Do you have any more information on the linear signal of the AC/Delco MAF? Or a reference on how the signal is generated, and read (leading to how it might be modified)? I'm always on the lookout for further reading on the subject, if you have some good links on this.

Also, have you run into any good references on the wideband sensor's output signal? These are definitely the wave of the future, as they are just plain superior sensors. But I haven't been able to get my wits around how they communicate to the ECU, and how that information might be modified. I'm missing something basic on this one. If you haven't seen it yet, you should check out wbo2.com. The home page is singularly unimpressive, but browse through the links in the "Help and Info" tab. These are the best wideband references I've found so far.

Mike,

Just one small item I found recently on wideband O2---

Wideband zirconia sensor
A variation on the zirconia sensor, called the 'wideband' sensor, was introduced by Robert Bosch in 1994 but is (as of 2006) used in only a few vehicles. It is based on a planar zirconia element, but also incorporates an electrochemical gas pump. An electronic circuit containing a feedback loop controls the gas pump current to keep the output of the electrochemical cell constant, so that the pump current directly indicates the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. This sensor eliminates the lean-rich cycling inherent in narrow-band sensors, allowing the control unit to adjust the fuel delivery and ignition timing of the engine much more rapidly. In the automotive industry this sensor is also called a UEGO (for Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor. UEGO sensors are also commonly used in aftermarket dyno tuning and high-performance driver air-fuel display equipment. The wideband zirconia sensor is used in stratified fuel injection systems, and can now also be used in diesel engines to satisfy the forthcoming EURO and ULEV emission limits.

steve
02-22-2008 03:34 PM
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mike Offline
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RE: Tunning the car for HHO
Ok, thanks. I've read the Bosch article on these sensors. They're pretty cool. But keep me in mind if you run across something on the signaling system used. Particularly if it explains it in such a way that you can actually understand how the ECU knows what the a/f ratio is from the wideband signal. That's specifically what I'm trying to nail down.

It's supposed to work on current flow, as opposed to a voltage amount. Although it seems to me that Mr Ohm determined that current flow can be adjusted by adjusting either the voltage or the resistance. I'm trying to get better information on what's happening there, and I don't have a car that has one, that I can watch what it's doing. An oscilloscope readout of an operating wideband sensor would be really cool.

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02-22-2008 03:44 PM
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Sartech Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Tunning the car for HHO
Mike,
Took me awhile to find this again but here it is.........MAF stuff and other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor
02-22-2008 03:54 PM
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Sartech Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Tunning the car for HHO
qsiguy Wrote:I have a Zeitronics wideband unit for my Infiniti Q45 Turbo and it can provide a narrow band output to allow you to use it in place of a typical O2 sensor. Any current ECU made for a narrow band would not be able to accept a full wideband sensor's input. Many of these wideband setups have accommodations to offset the signal from the control unit if you want to mess with a/f ratios. I think they (tuners) would typically use that feature to richen up the mixture tho.


Mine is a F.A.S.T. unit w/dual sensors and has the same option but only works with pre OBDII stuff. You are right, the hi-po guys like a/f's in the 11-12 range---no mpg's there!
02-22-2008 04:06 PM
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