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Winter Freeze
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mrbillr Offline
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Post: #1
Winter Freeze
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/200....Ch.r.html
Quote:Freezing process

The most fundamental way to explain how freezing points can vary is based on the equilibrium (or balance if you like) of a system (in the cases you describe, you have four systems, 1. is water + vinegar, 2. is water + soap, 3. is water + water and 4. is water + salt).

When freezing a solution, there are two forces acting against one
another. The first is what is often termed as the 'external pressure',
this is the pressure exerted by the surrounding air and this pushes down on to the surface of the solution. The second force is called the 'vapour pressure' and this is caused by the molecules in the solution trying to push upwards (against the external pressure) and to evaporate.

All solutions exist in a state of balance or equilibrium, where some of
the molecules manage to escape from the solution and form vapour
(evaporation), and some of the molecules of the vapour are forced back into solution by the air (condensation). This cycle repeats repeatedly, until the amount evaporating equals the amount condensing. This is referred to as being in a 'dynamic equilibrium'.

If however, the conditions of the system are changed, then so will the rate of evaporation and condensation. As the temperature is lowered, so the external pressure increases (and the vapour pressure decreases), and condensation occurs more quickly than evaporation. In addition, as the temperature falls, the amount of energy in the solution decreases, in turn the molecules in the solution slow down. At a certain point (freezing point of the particular solution), the molecules cease to move freely and the solution turns from a liquid to a solid, such as water turning into ice.

Solutions that freeze before water

To begin with, vinegar itself is actually a mixture of water and a
chemical called acetic acid (or ethanoic acid). The molecules of acetic acid form special types of bonds (called hydrogen bonds) with molecules of water. This means that the acetic acid molecules will have several water molecules clustered around them. The acetic acid holds the water, preventing it from evaporating so that the water molecules remain in the solution and reduce the vapour pressure. As outlined above, when the vapour pressure falls, the molecules in the solution are forced together (cease to move freely) and the solution freezes. Something similar happens with the soap and water solution. The two ends of a soap molecule are very different to each other, one draws molecules of water to it (called hydrophilic end, or water-liking) and the other end repulses water
away (called hydrophobic end, or water-hating). The hydrophilic end of the soap molecule gathers water around it much as the acetic acid does with molecules of water. In the same way, the soap stops the water from evaporating, reducing the vapour pressure and causing the solution to freeze.

Solutions that freeze after water

The salt that dissolves into the water actually keeps the water molecules
apart. In this respect, the salt operates in the opposite way that the
vinegar and soap do. Because the water molecules are much more separated,
they have more energy and evaporate much more easily. This increases the
vapour pressure. To make the solution freeze, the water molecules must be
held together. By taking energy away from the water molecules (by cooling
the solution down), causes the vapour pressure to decrease. As these
water molecules have more energy than water molecules with no salt
present, more energy must be taken from them. Therefore, the temperature
must fall below the normal freezing point of water to make the salt
solution freeze.

I hope this answers your question for you.


Chris Wilson, Research Chemist, Cooper Vision,
Southampton, England.

This might answer my questions. NaOH is Lye which is used in soap making. One thing I noticed while doing my testing, if I put my hand in the water it had a very slimy feel, like soap. There is a small amount of foam, but it was the slimy feel after pulling my hand out, which of course I would rinse off immediately.
I then thought about a vinegar solution but this report nixes that as well.

The article finishes up by making the comment about salt. I know people did not recommend salt for HHO because of they claimed it formed chlorine gas, etc. Don’t know how much scientific truth there is to that. But it would help the freeze problem in the winter, then we could go back to a normal solution when it warms up.

What are your thought?

BTW, I am not going to pop the hood and remove or replace this thing every single day for the next 4 months. It is bad enough just scraping the windows.

MrBill
2008 f250 XLT 6.4 diesel 2x4 automatic extended cab
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2008 07:56 AM by mrbillr.)
11-03-2008 07:55 AM
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hygear Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Winter Freeze
The guy in Alaska had the best method for winterizing I've seen,by adding denatured alcohol at 20% ratio to the e-lyte.He said it worked down to 20deg.F.below.

I did my own mythbusters proving that koh e-lyte will freeze,by freezing a 30% solution of koh,I even bumped it up to 40% and still froze.This was at 6 deg.F.

2005 Dodge Ram 1500 Quadcab 4x4 5.7 hemi
11-03-2008 01:35 PM
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mrbillr Offline
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RE: Winter Freeze
hygear Wrote:The guy in Alaska had the best method for winterizing I've seen,by adding denatured alcohol at 20% ratio to the e-lyte.He said it worked down to 20deg.F.below.

I did my own mythbusters proving that koh e-lyte will freeze,by freezing a 30% solution of koh,I even bumped it up to 40% and still froze.This was at 6 deg.F.

I would think alcohol would evaporate/boil off? Does he add every day, or how often does he have to refresh the alcohol?

MrBill
2008 f250 XLT 6.4 diesel 2x4 automatic extended cab
11-03-2008 03:53 PM
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hygear Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Winter Freeze
mrbillr Wrote:
hygear Wrote:.F.

I would think alcohol would evaporate/boil off? Does he add every day, or how often does he have to refresh the alcohol?

I'll try to look to find it,I read so much on 5 different forums it kinda gets lost in the sauce sometimes.

I guess you could draw a sample now and then and test it in the freezer is the advice I have right now.If I run across the thread I'll post or pm it to you.

2005 Dodge Ram 1500 Quadcab 4x4 5.7 hemi
11-03-2008 07:25 PM
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hygear Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Winter Freeze
Ok I remember where I saw the post regarding the alcohol and have the post here,but it doesn't say how often he replenishes the alcohol.So I sent him a pm for an answer and will get back to when he replies.Here's what he did say in the post.





I use 99% Isopropyl Alcohol at 20% volume and It has never frozen on me. Last winter was the first winter that I used it. The coldest it got here was 28 below zero and stayed that way for three weeks. I did ruin one bubbler as I did not think ahead and forgot to add alcohol to it. It froze and cracked the container. I have never measured the difference in production with and without alcohol added. I have just finished building a new very large gen for my 2008 Nissan frontier. I will be doing extensive testing before installing it. One of the tests will be with and without alcohol volume tests. I will start a new thread with all the results.

2005 Dodge Ram 1500 Quadcab 4x4 5.7 hemi
11-03-2008 08:04 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Winter Freeze
hygear Wrote:Ok I remember where I saw the post regarding the alcohol and have the post here,but it doesn't say how often he replenishes the alcohol.So I sent him a pm for an answer and will get back to when he replies.Here's what he did say in the post.

Thanks, good post!





I use 99% Isopropyl Alcohol at 20% volume and It has never frozen on me. Last winter was the first winter that I used it. The coldest it got here was 28 below zero and stayed that way for three weeks. I did ruin one bubbler as I did not think ahead and forgot to add alcohol to it. It froze and cracked the container. I have never measured the difference in production with and without alcohol added. I have just finished building a new very large gen for my 2008 Nissan frontier. I will be doing extensive testing before installing it. One of the tests will be with and without alcohol volume tests. I will start a new thread with all the results.
11-03-2008 08:21 PM
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gtkco Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Winter Freeze
hygear Wrote:I did my own mythbusters proving that koh e-lyte will freeze,by freezing a 30% solution of koh,I even bumped it up to 40% and still froze.This was at 6 deg.F.

I think that everyone should should take note of hygear's example. I have been doing a lot of freeze tests and what I have found is that what people are reccommending on the forums it just plain gossip, guesses or out right garbage.

Here is my test of 125 ML denatured Alcohol to 375 ML H2O. Starting temp of 72F. F readings are of the liquid temp. Starting Freezer avg temp 2F. I use the average because the freezor cycles above and below.

Elapse
time (F) Description
4 hours (9) Liquid
8 hours (7) Thickened liquid. Would still flow through 1/4 tube
24 hours (3) A heavy slush but still viscous. Still might expand
in 1/4 tube with no damage or popping of tubes.
Lowered freezor temp to avg -3

48hours (-6) A very heavy slush. No flow through tubes. Might pop
tubes. Lowered freezor to avg -11.

72 hours (-16) Non Viscous semi hard ice crystals. Can't penetrate
with butter knife to bottom of jar but much easier
to chip than normal ice. Expansion Might damage plates
or pop tubes.

In many of these tests, the ice that does form is differant than water ice. Often they are looser crystals. Some you can put a butter knife through right to the bottom of the jar with a little effort, others not. It all depends. I have no HHO production rates with these mixes and will eventually test but these experiments take a ton of time! (Not to mention writing up all these reports! But I know you guys appreciate it.)
*************
Note to other forum writers: When I editted this, I put everything into nice pretty columns. When I saved it, all the spaces were removed. When I go back to edit, all the spacing is back. Oh well, I tried!
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2008 06:55 AM by gtkco.)
11-04-2008 06:42 AM
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uberhho Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Winter Freeze
Let gen, 'warm' up. Smile Load under wire should break through mother nature. Fight fire with Fire.
11-23-2008 10:13 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Winter Freeze
[/quote]
One thing I noticed while doing my testing, if I put my hand in the water it had a very slimy feel, like soap. There is a small amount of foam, but it was the slimy feel after pulling my hand out, which of course I would rinse off immediately.
[/quote]
MrBill:

That slimy feeling is NaOH converting your skin, especially the oils contained therein to soap and glycerine. Thanks for the cite to the chemist's explanation of freezing.
(This post was last modified: 11-23-2008 10:44 PM by thomasbala.)
11-23-2008 10:42 PM
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