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Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
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gtkco Offline
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Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
Well, here are my first tests with windshield fluid. I must say that it is looking promising.

Mixed used: 5teas NaOH + 500ml H2O + 500ml (-20 rated windshield fluid)

Summary Conclusions: The introduction of methyl (also called methenol) at this concentration level reduces HHO output by approximately 40% at the same amperage. Electrolyte heating rate doubles. There were no obvious toxic fumes produced. The solution remained clear and no bloom was encountered. Gas ignition rate remained constant through out the test. Bubble ignition mimicks H2 ignition rather than HHO. The ignition is perhaps slightly more energetic than H2. (see thumbnail #1 for data)

Freeze tests were conducted with a control fresh electrolyte and a used electrolyte run for 4 hours at 2.8v with amp range of 6.5 to 7.0 amps and temperature ranges of 76F to 108F. Both the control fresh and used electrolyte remained liquid for 11 hours in a freezor that averages 5F. Liquid temp for both reached 5F. In the second freeze test the freezor was set to its coldest level which averages about -5F. At hour six, it was noted that the control leveled to 2F while the used leveled at 4F. This suggests that the used solution lost 2 degree's of freezing resistance due to the 4 hour run. Even though the used solution never exceeded methyl's boiling point of 147F, the ignition behavior of the HHO gas suggests that there is some vaporization of the methyl and this is reducing the freeze resistence as it is used up. It is possible that even though these mixes did loose total vicosity, they produced a relatively soft icy slush that might not harm anything. (see thumbnail #2 for data)

I intend to run this solution for another 4 or 8 hours and do another refreeze to see if it further reduces it's freeze resistance. Maybe we can get some ballpark rates figured out.

Boy is this a slow and painful process!Tongue


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(This post was last modified: 12-04-2008 06:37 AM by gtkco.)
12-03-2008 09:44 PM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
Oh yes, I forgot to add another observation note. The 400 series SS cutlery that I am using for straps to my 304 SS test anodes has developed a rust coloring both above and below the elite solution. However, this has not affected the color of the elite. It is still running clear. The 304 SS and 18/8 bolts show no appreciable change.
12-04-2008 08:59 AM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
Well, I ran another 4 hour test and did another freeze test. It appears as if the total 8 hours of running may have bumped up the freezing point by a couple of degrees. But generally speaking it appears that the effect of running the solution does not degrade its freeze resistance as fast as I thought it would. Even though starting crystalization moved from 4 to 7 degrees in the used solution, the elite remains soft enough after 11 hours and down to -4 that it probably would not harm a gen install.

However, there is a new effect. After each freeze cycle, the elite loses about 1 to 2 amps. As fresh it started at 6.6, then 1 freeze cycle to 4.8 and now after 2 freeze cycles it starts at 3.6 amps. I have checked everything that I can and am left with the only conclusion that freezing somehow reduces the elites effectivenes. As if we don't have enough things to over come. I am completely at a loss as to why freezing would cause this effect.Crazy Anyone with any ideas as to why it is losing its amps, I'm all ears. Well I'll futz with it a little more and then I guess its off to rubbing alcohol. God only knows what will happen next!

I have attached the results below.


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(This post was last modified: 12-05-2008 07:54 PM by gtkco.)
12-05-2008 06:29 PM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
Ok, a few more observations. It's not just freezing that weakens the NaOH electrolye. It's the combination of freezing-thaw-production, that is reducing the amp through-put. I took the fresh solution that had only gone through 2 freeze cycles and compared it to the solution that had done the 2 freeze cycles and 2 production cycles. The used solution dropped in amps by 35% compared to the solution that only had gone through freeze cycles. BTW, are any of you finding this at all surprising or interesting for that matter?
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2008 04:49 PM by gtkco.)
12-07-2008 04:46 PM
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Gary Offline
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RE: Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
Very good work. Yea, it's interesting too; especially since so many have hopes of getting thru the winter with it.
Evidently, the solution would have to be changed periodically.
12-07-2008 06:37 PM
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howiemandel Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
nice work. you might be effecting the water as well. Live water, dead water kinda deal. At different tempatures water forms differently, or is different in how it is formed, if that makes sense.
Water has different forms of "makeup". octagonal, hexagonal and what not. It constantly evolves, as though its a living entity. Research living water and dead water, you'll be intrigued.
So far, im being led to believe by my research that distilled water is about the opposite of what we should be using for a part of the "perfect" mix to use in our systems.
Take care,
Howie.
12-07-2008 10:40 PM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
Well, one variable at a time. If I know what temp during the freeze test that causes the amp degridation we might be able to avoid changing elite. It might be the acutual ice crystalization process that affects the solution. So if we know that the elite won't crystalize in temps down to 5F, like in the first freeze test, then we can sort of mentally be aware of when we might have issues. We also will know what our true effective low temp is. Our concern is no longer damage to the gen/tubes from the elite as it turns to a solid, but damage to the elite itself forcing a maintainence headache. I also like tony's idea. Instead of plugging in heaters for super cold nights that go below the elites freeze point, do a plug in for the gen itself. Have a valve and venting tube for the gas just for this purpose. This way the whole system stays clear.

Of course, this elite-amp deterioration might be caused by the nature of methyl or the Alcohol family or possibly water's crystalizing behavior as Howie has pointed out. I think I will start test rubbing alcholol to see if this is a common behavior in the alcohol family.

Finally, It is also important to note the change of HHO ignition behavior under these winter-elite solutions tests. All this might be for naught anyhow if this change in the gas kills the mpg. Because I haven't even opened the hood of my car to see if HHO works I can't test this. Maybe, some of you guys who have proven gains might do a winter sol test to see if the HHO gas behavior change affects mpg. (of course you would have to up the NaOH to get the output back to the same levels) And any of you who have used any form of alcohol in their systems please chime in with your observations regarding mpg or odd amp behavior
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2008 08:46 AM by gtkco.)
12-08-2008 08:45 AM
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ipz2222 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
gtkco. You can forget isypropel alcohol 91 percent. It causes the electrolite to foam like soap suds. Created 3 inches of foam in 3 minutes In my 4 inch canister.
01-02-2009 02:18 PM
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tonyc860 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
(12-08-2008 08:45 AM)gtkco Wrote:  Well, one variable at a time. If I know what temp during the freeze test that causes the amp degridation we might be able to avoid changing elite. It might be the acutual ice crystalization process that affects the solution. So if we know that the elite won't crystalize in temps down to 5F, like in the first freeze test, then we can sort of mentally be aware of when we might have issues. We also will know what our true effective low temp is. Our concern is no longer damage to the gen/tubes from the elite as it turns to a solid, but damage to the elite itself forcing a maintainence headache. I also like tony's idea. Instead of plugging in heaters for super cold nights that go below the elites freeze point, do a plug in for the gen itself. Have a valve and venting tube for the gas just for this purpose. This way the whole system stays clear.

Of course, this elite-amp deterioration might be caused by the nature of methyl or the Alcohol family or possibly water's crystalizing behavior as Howie has pointed out. I think I will start test rubbing alcholol to see if this is a common behavior in the alcohol family.

Finally, It is also important to note the change of HHO ignition behavior under these winter-elite solutions tests. All this might be for naught anyhow if this change in the gas kills the mpg. Because I haven't even opened the hood of my car to see if HHO works I can't test this. Maybe, some of you guys who have proven gains might do a winter sol test to see if the HHO gas behavior change affects mpg. (of course you would have to up the NaOH to get the output back to the same levels) And any of you who have used any form of alcohol in their systems please chime in with your observations regarding mpg or odd amp behavior

Unfortunately my idea failed because the battery charger burnt up because of constant use. But it was working until then, new years eve was 5 degrees and was ok in the morning. The next plan for me is to use a small pump (fishtank or wet saw) and pump the electrolyte through the unit passing the line completely in and out of a second container (mason jar). The water in the mason jar would be heated with a coffee mug warmer. As the pump pushes the electrolyte through the system it will pass through the warm water and back through your system. I think it'll work as long as the seals on the unit are tight otherwise it may cause a leak. I am just not certain the pump would hold up to the KOH. I still believe the only way to keep it from freezing is either keep the unit running or keep the water flowing. Fast water flow is hard to freeze.

Tony
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01-05-2009 03:05 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Winter Sol Test2: NaOH + Windshield (-20) methyl, Production & freeze data
I bought one of the little fish tank pumps to play with, but I really doubt it could run nonstop for very long. Wetsaw pump, maybe.
01-05-2009 03:15 PM
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