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Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
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gtkco Offline
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Post: #1
Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
NaOh 2.5 teas + (xx% H2o) + (xx% Hydrogen Peroxide 3%) = 500ml mix

While hydrogen peroxide does offer some freeze protection it is only effective for about 7-8 hours at an average constant temperature of 9F. Increasing concentrations from 10% to 40% of store grade HP(3%) had no real appreciable differance. More concentrated products of HP appear to be cost prohibative. Given that 10% Rub Alcohol/70% will give at least 11-12 hours of protection at this outside temp I do not consider peroxide to be a viable canidate. Since it's freeze tests are marginal, I will not being conducting any production tests. (See freeze data on attached thumb nail)

Sorry it has taken so long to do more tests but life keeps getting in the way of my play. The nerve!Mad
Hey! What happened to the thumb nails?

[Image: attachment.php?aid=1158]


Attached File(s) Thumbnail(s)
   
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2009 07:07 PM by colchiro.)
01-21-2009 11:38 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
(01-21-2009 11:38 AM)gtkco Wrote:  Hey! What happened to the thumb nails?

They probably got broken when Mike updated the software. I suspect it's just a setting somewhere.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
01-21-2009 07:08 PM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
BTW, whats the "downloads" after the attached file? Are people able to down loan the jpg?
01-22-2009 05:26 PM
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colchiro Offline
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RE: Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
Every time the page loads, the count is incremented since I added it to your post. Wink All I did was take the link from your attached file and add it as a picture.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
01-22-2009 07:56 PM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
Well, I don't like putting a big huge picture in my posts. It makes the post seem too cluttered IMO. I liked the little thumb nails. Do you think Mike is going to check to see if that option is still availible in the upgrade? If not, I think I'll just do the attached files with real clear file names.
01-23-2009 01:41 PM
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colchiro Offline
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RE: Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
Sorry, thought I was helping you out. You can always change back if you want, just delete the img tags.

I doubt it's going to change. He doesn't update it very often and has another project (or two) in the works these days to keep him busy.

I don't mind a pic or two, I just don't like it when the next 4 posters have to copy the entire large post and add their 2 line comment on the end.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2009 07:01 PM by colchiro.)
01-23-2009 07:00 PM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
(01-23-2009 07:00 PM)colchiro Wrote:  Sorry, thought I was helping you out. You can always change back if you want, just delete the img tags.
Oh no, no problem! That's fine.

(01-23-2009 07:00 PM)colchiro Wrote:  ...I just don't like it when the next 4 posters have to copy the entire large post and add their 2 line comment on the end.
Yep. That's why I liked the thumb nails. And because some guys are too lazy to get rid of the copy, the big pictures really make the thread a mess. So it's well described attached files from here on in. Thanks. Yah, I guess Mike is real busy especially with the new AFR Efie. It's great that he even has this forum so no complaints here.
01-23-2009 09:35 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
(01-21-2009 11:38 AM)gtkco Wrote:  NaOh 2.5 teas + (xx% H2o) + (xx% Hydrogen Peroxide 3%) = 500ml mix
Gtkco:

Thanks for your research, data, and most of all your endeavor. In my neck of the woods it very rarely gets anywhere near 9F. Your research has perhaps solved my winter problem. I like citiric acid as an electrolyte; I used "Heet"[methanol] to prevent freezing. Unfortunately, I experienced a massive reduction in HHO after methanol addition [20% of the electrolyte, by volume]. If I can get my summer HHO gains in winter I'll be ecstatic. So, looks like I can use 3%[drugstore grade] H2O2, but, I've got to change electrolyte every 8 hours[ solution of 3% H2O2 + citric acid]. I think it's a fair trade for the HHO benefit. Hope my local Walgreen's or CVS has a sale on H2O2 so I can try it out. Wonder if the "Oxyclean" and substitute bleach oxidizers would produce the same result if added every 8 hours.
01-23-2009 10:55 PM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the encouragement. Now I know why people haven't really tackled the winter problem. These tests take forever to do and are filled with multiple variables. On an other note, I don't think I would recommend you using the h2o2. This is because the NaOH is an anti freezing agent as well. The results above are probably 80% due to the NaOH and not the peroxide. As you can see, the differance between the 10% and the 40% was very small if at all. I think because you use citric acid, you would have close to the freezing rates of regular water. Also, I didn't do any production tests. I have been shocked by what I have learned in other tests. Additives can effect the burn chrateristics as well as the electrolyte durability during full cycles of freeze-thaw-production. Chemistry is a mysterious thing full of surprises. See these links if your interested in my other tests/disasters.
http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=2466
http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=2536

I would think about using rub alcohol. You don't seem to need much protection so maybe 5% to 10% might be plenty for you. See my research below.
http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=2612

Of course, because of your post it now dawns on me that I should probably do a freeze test with 4 samples: (2.5 teas Naoh + 500ml H2O), (10% Rub + 90% H20), (23%rub + 77% H2O), and (40% Rub + 60% H20). This would really break out the effects of each agent and the concentration effect of rub. Weeeell, I'll but it on the list for later. I do actually have to open the hood of my car eventually to see if this HHO stuff will actually work on my car!Big Grin
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2009 09:25 AM by gtkco.)
01-24-2009 09:19 AM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Winter solution test4: Hydrogen peroxide
[quote='gtkco' pid='26867' dateline='1232817545']
I would think about using rub alcohol. You don't seem to need much protection so maybe 5% to 10% might be plenty for you. See my research below.
http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=2612

GTKCO:
I just can't thank you enough for your using the "scientific method"; most folks don't really know how hard, thoughtful and tedious it can be. Hate to say it , but I'm one of those who let you do the work and I reaped the benefits. I drained my dry cell and my bath cell[paid too much for it to discard it & it really produces with my choice of electrolytes, citric acid]. Used a citric acid concentrate with isopropyl, rather than the methanol I was using, and lo and behold looks like production at least doubled. I didn't measure like you would have done[highs have been in the lower 20's in my neck of the woods] but visually there's an obvious difference.

Read a few months ago that NASA was using Methanol as an electrolyte. Never understood that because I always got lesser production with the addition of methanol. From a purely chemistry aspect it should not matter which alchohol molecule is added in solution to the electrolyte, however, it obviously does as I have witnessed. Thanks again.
01-28-2009 05:00 PM
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