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Winterize with NaOH
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mrbillr Offline
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Post: #1
Winterize with NaOH
Here is an interesting chart for NaOH by DOW chemical. At 18% concentraction by weight, the freeze point is -30 degrees C.
If anybody has a problem below -30 degrees then you might look for other solutions. But as for us in the lower 48, I don't think we will have a problem.

http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/d...age=GetDoc

However, the next question is, just how many teaspoons will get it up to 18% ? That sounds like a mighty powerful mix.

MrBill
2008 f250 XLT 6.4 diesel 2x4 automatic extended cab
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2008 10:57 AM by mrbillr.)
12-05-2008 10:57 AM
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alpha-dog Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Winterize with NaOH
mrbillr Wrote:Here is an interesting chart for NaOH by DOW chemical. At 18% concentraction by weight, the freeze point is -30 degrees C.
If anybody has a problem below -30 degrees then you might look for other solutions. But as for us in the lower 48, I don't think we will have a problem.

http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/d...age=GetDoc

However, the next question is, just how many teaspoons will get it up to 18% ? That sounds like a mighty powerful mix.

I'm not sure how to tell that either but it sounds like we'll need pwm's.
Russ
12-05-2008 01:34 PM
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AlexR Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Winterize with NaOH
alpha-dog Wrote:
mrbillr Wrote:However, the next question is, just how many teaspoons will get it up to 18% ? That sounds like a mighty powerful mix.

I'm not sure how to tell that either but it sounds like we'll need pwm's.
Russ

Guys,

look at my and other posts on series cells. They are more efficient and are made to run on higher concentrations of electrolyte. No PWM needed.

18% by weight is straight forward. You want 18% of your solution to be NaOH.
Metric system works great here. 1 liter of water weighs 1000 grams. 18% of that is 180 grams. We can't just add 180 grams to the 1 liter, it wouldn't be correct. Take out 180 grams of water and replace it with NaOH. So you add 180 grams of NaOH - very slowly - to 820 grams of water. You total solution will weigh 1000 grams, 18% of which is NaOH.

Big safety point here.

Wear splash proof safety goggles and rubber gloves.

NEVER add water to the NaOH, a violent reaction will result spraying NaOH all over.

Add the NaOH very slowly to water, best while stirring. Wait until the solution turns clear to add more. The liquid will get hot and give off an acidic smell. Do it outside.

If you pour in too much at once the water can get very hot and boil, splashing NaOH all over.

I have a separate large pyrex measuring cup I use to mix my solutions.

The above, like most anything requires respect, just be careful, work slowly and you'll be OK.

Alex

Cool Flame, LLC
http://www.cool-flame.com
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2008 01:56 PM by AlexR.)
12-05-2008 01:55 PM
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mrbillr Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Winterize with NaOH
AlexR Wrote:
alpha-dog Wrote:
mrbillr Wrote:However, the next question is, just how many teaspoons will get it up to 18% ? That sounds like a mighty powerful mix.

I'm not sure how to tell that either but it sounds like we'll need pwm's.
Russ

Guys,

look at my and other posts on series cells. They are more efficient and are made to run on higher concentrations of electrolyte. No PWM needed.

18% by weight is straight forward. You want 18% of your solution to be NaOH.
Metric system works great here. 1 liter of water weighs 1000 grams. 18% of that is 180 grams. We can't just add 180 grams to the 1 liter, it wouldn't be correct. Take out 180 grams of water and replace it with NaOH. So you add 180 grams of NaOH - very slowly - to 820 grams of water. You total solution will weigh 1000 grams, 18% of which is NaOH.

Big safety point here.

Wear splash proof safety goggles and rubber gloves.

NEVER add water to the NaOH, a violent reaction will result spraying NaOH all over.

Add the NaOH very slowly to water, best while stirring. Wait until the solution turns clear to add more. The liquid will get hot and give off an acidic smell. Do it outside.

If you pour in too much at once the water can get very hot and boil, splashing NaOH all over.

I have a separate large pyrex measuring cup I use to mix my solutions.

The above, like most anything requires respect, just be careful, work slowly and you'll be OK.

So you really are saying to add 3 cups to a gallon of water? A gallon is 128oz. and 3 cups is 24 oz. 20% of 128 is 25.6 oz.
That is HUGE!!!!
Maybe you are talking liquid NaOH and not crystals. Surely this can't be right.
Anybody else?

MrBill
2008 f250 XLT 6.4 diesel 2x4 automatic extended cab
12-05-2008 03:34 PM
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AlexR Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Winterize with NaOH
mrbillr Wrote:So you really are saying to add 3 cups to a gallon of water? A gallon is 128oz. and 3 cups is 24 oz. 20% of 128 is 25.6 oz.
That is HUGE!!!!
Maybe you are talking liquid NaOH and not crystals. Surely this can't be right.
Anybody else?

I'm talking crystals.

3 cups of water weighs 24 oz. I'm talking weight, not volume. You would need to add 24 oz of lye. A scale is needed to measure it.

Who needs a whole gallon of the stuff?

Alex

Cool Flame, LLC
http://www.cool-flame.com
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2008 05:42 PM by AlexR.)
12-05-2008 05:40 PM
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ptours99 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Winterize with NaOH
AlexR Wrote:
mrbillr Wrote:So you really are saying to add 3 cups to a gallon of water? A gallon is 128oz. and 3 cups is 24 oz. 20% of 128 is 25.6 oz.
That is HUGE!!!!
Maybe you are talking liquid NaOH and not crystals. Surely this can't be right.
Anybody else?

I'm talking crystals.

3 cups of water weighs 24 oz. I'm talking weight, not volume. You would need to add 24 oz of lye. A scale is needed to measure it.

Who needs a whole gallon of the stuff?
alex is correct,and you have to have a well balanced series cell to do it.but alex why wouldn't you consider a pwm at this point.the cell will go higher in amps and isn't it better to turn down that gas production to achieve a monatomic hydrogen.

selling an enclosure for the rear of cab semi truck 28''X20''X6'' CUSTOM MADE ALUMINUM TO HOUSE HHO GENERATORS AND INCLUDING A RESERVOIR BUBBLER AND REGULAR BUBBLR ptoures@sbcglobal.net usa only
12-05-2008 06:31 PM
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mrbillr Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Winterize with NaOH
AlexR Wrote:I'm talking crystals.

3 cups of water weighs 24 oz. I'm talking weight, not volume. You would need to add 24 oz of lye. A scale is needed to measure it.

Who needs a whole gallon of the stuff?

My dry cell and reservoir total volume is approximately 1 gallon. That is why I ask in regards to 1 gallon.
Ok, so it is not by volume but by weight. That is still 1 ½ pounds of NaOH, I repeat “pounds”, in a 1 gallon container.
I guess I better get a humongous PWM to try and tame that sucker with that amount of electrolyte.

And another reason this all comes about, the Bob Boyce cell that was just released he mentions to 20% NaOH level. So that might be a target to shoot for as well as this being the very lowest freezing point at this concentration.

MrBill
2008 f250 XLT 6.4 diesel 2x4 automatic extended cab
12-05-2008 08:45 PM
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AlexR Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Winterize with NaOH
ptours99 Wrote:alex is correct,and you have to have a well balanced series cell to do it.but alex why wouldn't you consider a pwm at this point.the cell will go higher in amps and isn't it better to turn down that gas production to achieve a monatomic hydrogen.

Ptours,

I'm not against a PWM, if someone happened to build a cell too big a PWM would be a definite solution to control the gas output. It would be easier than rebuilding the whole unit.

In a perfect world we would build a series cell to exactly match our engine size and not need a PWM. Since at this point we don't know the exact size of a cell that we need for each engine size, the PWM is a solution.

I don't have an answer to the monatomic hydrogen. BG is a mixture of gases that come out of an electrolyzer that does include monatomic hydrogen. It's the whole mix that gives us the BG that helps with combustion enhancement.

Alex

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12-06-2008 08:23 AM
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AlexR Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Winterize with NaOH
mrbillr Wrote:My dry cell and reservoir total volume is approximately 1 gallon. That is why I ask in regards to 1 gallon.

A gallon sounds like a lot, how big is your cell?

You may not need a reservoir of lye, just the lye in the unit and add water to it as needed. But I may be wrong here as I don't know the specifics about your setup.

Alex

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12-06-2008 08:26 AM
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mrbillr Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Winterize with NaOH
AlexR Wrote:A gallon sounds like a lot, how big is your cell?

The cell does not contain all the electrolyte. The normal dry cell includes a reservoir that also functions as a bubbler. Between the combination a fluid in the cell and the reservoir and the little bubbler prior to going in the intake, there is 1 gallon of electrolyte. This all is tied together and recirculated which also reduces any heat buildup.
Hince the research for a 1 gallon mix.

MrBill
2008 f250 XLT 6.4 diesel 2x4 automatic extended cab
12-07-2008 06:50 AM
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