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amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
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rudagray Offline
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Post: #1
amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
If we are splitting up H20 into HHO and then into H2 and O, and the O also connect to each other...

And we know H bubbles are smaller than O bubbles and H is 1 O is 8, and H2 is 2 and O2 is 16 Crazy

Does this sound right-
If we take an HHO generator that makes .9lpm we should be getting .1lpm H2 and .8lpm of O2? Confused

Looking further the H2 and O2 that combusts reforms into water, I'm wondering since earth's atmosphere is ~21% Oxygen already + ~1% water vapor, where in theory is best point to be? I know that it also depends on the many other variables. Engine Size, temperature, gas qty injected, etc.

Always remember there is a fine line between genius and insanity, so don't cross it.
Wile E. Coyote never learned and he was a SUPER GENIUS! Roadrunner made him insane.
If all great minds thought alike, we'd get nowhere, the differences can make us all prosper.
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2008 07:49 PM by rudagray.)
09-18-2008 07:46 PM
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howiemandel Offline
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Post: #2
RE: amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
No ruda.

Hydrogen consists of 1 protron and 1 electron. It is the lightest and most simple atom on earth, and is what many call the building block of the universe, and certainly the building block of earth.
In water, there are 2 isotopes of hydrogen. H2O So for every 1 Oxygen you get 2 hydrogens.
Oxygen has one protron and 8 electrons.
Oxygen is much bigger. 88% of the "mass" of water is oxygen.
09-18-2008 10:06 PM
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finallyME Offline
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Post: #3
RE: amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
howiemandel Wrote:No ruda.

Hydrogen consists of 1 protron and 1 electron. It is the lightest and most simple atom on earth, and is what many call the building block of the universe, and certainly the building block of earth.
In water, there are 2 isotopes of hydrogen. H2O So for every 1 Oxygen you get 2 hydrogens.
Oxygen has one protron and 8 electrons.
Oxygen is much bigger. 88% of the "mass" of water is oxygen.

Remember that once they are split and in gas form, that they obey the ideal gas laws. Also, both hydrogen and oxygen form H2 and O2 (because of the electron count). What this means is the an H2 molecule will take up the same amount of space as an O2 molecule. A gas molecule is very active and bouncing around everywhere. The volume that one molecule takes up is determined by temperature and pressure, not necessarily molecular size. So, when you measure the output of HHO, 2/3s of it is hydrogen, and 1/3 is oxygen.

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09-19-2008 05:12 AM
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howiemandel Offline
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Post: #4
RE: amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
didnt know that. I only assumed that H being the smallest was smaller then oxygen, even in gas form.

intresting.
09-19-2008 05:51 AM
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rudagray Offline
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Post: #5
RE: amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
howiemandel Wrote:No ruda.

Hydrogen consists of 1 protron and 1 electron. It is the lightest and most simple atom on earth, and is what many call the building block of the universe, and certainly the building block of earth.
In water, there are 2 isotopes of hydrogen. H2O So for every 1 Oxygen you get 2 hydrogens.
Oxygen has one protron and 8 electrons.
Oxygen is much bigger. 88% of the "mass" of water is oxygen.

so 12% 88% and where I got my .1 to .8 ratio

finallyME Wrote:Remember that once they are split and in gas form, that they obey the ideal gas laws. Also, both hydrogen and oxygen form H2 and O2 (because of the electron count). What this means is the an H2 molecule will take up the same amount of space as an O2 molecule. A gas molecule is very active and bouncing around everywhere. The volume that one molecule takes up is determined by temperature and pressure, not necessarily molecular size. So, when you measure the output of HHO, 2/3s of it is hydrogen, and 1/3 is oxygen.

so why is it that measurements of the H2 outputs are so low, using your numbers if it is 2/3 hydrogen a .9lpm HHO should be .6 HH and .3O? or as it forms into gas still proportional .6 H2 and .3 O2 as it is 2H2O -> 2H2 + O2.

I'm getting more confused Confused

Always remember there is a fine line between genius and insanity, so don't cross it.
Wile E. Coyote never learned and he was a SUPER GENIUS! Roadrunner made him insane.
If all great minds thought alike, we'd get nowhere, the differences can make us all prosper.
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2008 08:07 AM by rudagray.)
09-19-2008 08:00 AM
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howiemandel Offline
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Post: #6
RE: amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
rudagray Wrote:
howiemandel Wrote:No ruda.

Hydrogen consists of 1 protron and 1 electron. It is the lightest and most simple atom on earth, and is what many call the building block of the universe, and certainly the building block of earth.
In water, there are 2 isotopes of hydrogen. H2O So for every 1 Oxygen you get 2 hydrogens.
Oxygen has one protron and 8 electrons.
Oxygen is much bigger. 88% of the "mass" of water is oxygen.

so 12% 88% and where I got my .1 to .8 ratio

finallyME Wrote:Remember that once they are split and in gas form, that they obey the ideal gas laws. Also, both hydrogen and oxygen form H2 and O2 (because of the electron count). What this means is the an H2 molecule will take up the same amount of space as an O2 molecule. A gas molecule is very active and bouncing around everywhere. The volume that one molecule takes up is determined by temperature and pressure, not necessarily molecular size. So, when you measure the output of HHO, 2/3s of it is hydrogen, and 1/3 is oxygen.

so why is it that measurements of the H2 outputs are so low, using your numbers if it is 2/3 hydrogen a .9lpm HHO should be .6 HH and .3O? or as it forms into gas still proportional .6 H2 and .3 O2 as it is 2H2O -> 2H2 + O2.

I'm getting more confused Confused

LMAO.........now Im messed up! lol.
09-19-2008 09:20 AM
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finallyME Offline
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Post: #7
RE: amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
rudagray Wrote:so why is it that measurements of the H2 outputs are so low, using your numbers if it is 2/3 hydrogen a .9lpm HHO should be .6 HH and .3O? or as it forms into gas still proportional .6 H2 and .3 O2 as it is 2H2O -> 2H2 + O2.

I'm getting more confused Confused

You are right on here. If HHO is .9 lpm, then H2 is coming out at .6 lpm, and O2 is .3 lpm. What is confusing you? Maybe a specific example to compare to?

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09-19-2008 09:36 AM
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rudagray Offline
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Post: #8
RE: amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
finallyME Wrote:You are right on here. If HHO is .9 lpm, then H2 is coming out at .6 lpm, and O2 is .3 lpm. What is confusing you? Maybe a specific example to compare to?

The actual outputs that I am hearing about and the production in LPH vs. LPM?

I think hydrodine stated only 250ml/min in one thread first post item 12 here http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=1601
and much less in another one copied below...

hydrodine Wrote:I just got done installing my new designed H2 cell in my 05 chevy colorado. I will post my results as i get them. Currently the cell is pulling 6 amps hot and has good hydrogen production. Right now it is producing 3 liters per hour of pure hydrogen. May be alittle to much for the engine, time will tell. I would perfer to be around 1 liter per hour, That was the magic number for my saturn.

Hydrodine

if only getting 3lph that is .05lpm and if that is 2/3 of the gas output he's only getting a total of .075lpm of HHO?

Also saw this in that thread-
finallyME Wrote:Hey hydrodine, I finally got around to punching some numbers. The theoretical maximum for H2 production with 6 amps is 42 ml/min, or 2.52 l/hour. So, your cell is really producing. That is good news. I almost finished drawing up my two H2 only generators and hope to finish tonight. Hopefully one will produce like yours. Big Grin

And the many comments I've seen that "Hydrogen production is much less than HHO?" and you don't need as much...
CrazyConfusedCrazy

If we are pulling the Hydrogen away from the HHO we're not getting 2/3 volume?

Always remember there is a fine line between genius and insanity, so don't cross it.
Wile E. Coyote never learned and he was a SUPER GENIUS! Roadrunner made him insane.
If all great minds thought alike, we'd get nowhere, the differences can make us all prosper.
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2008 11:27 AM by rudagray.)
09-19-2008 11:15 AM
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finallyME Offline
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Post: #9
RE: amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
rudagray Wrote:
finallyME Wrote:You are right on here. If HHO is .9 lpm, then H2 is coming out at .6 lpm, and O2 is .3 lpm. What is confusing you? Maybe a specific example to compare to?

The actual outputs that I am hearing about and the production in LPH vs. LPM?

I think hydrodine stated only 250ml/min in one thread first post item 12 here http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=1601
and much less in another one copied below...

hydrodine Wrote:I just got done installing my new designed H2 cell in my 05 chevy colorado. I will post my results as i get them. Currently the cell is pulling 6 amps hot and has good hydrogen production. Right now it is producing 3 liters per hour of pure hydrogen. May be alittle to much for the engine, time will tell. I would perfer to be around 1 liter per hour, That was the magic number for my saturn.

Hydrodine

if only getting 3lph that is .05lpm and if that is 2/3 of the gas output he's only getting a total of .075lpm of HHO?

Also saw this in that thread-
finallyME Wrote:Hey hydrodine, I finally got around to punching some numbers. The theoretical maximum for H2 production with 6 amps is 42 ml/min, or 2.52 l/hour. So, your cell is really producing. That is good news. I almost finished drawing up my two H2 only generators and hope to finish tonight. Hopefully one will produce like yours. Big Grin

And the many comments I've seen that "Hydrogen production is much less than HHO?" and you don't need as much...
CrazyConfusedCrazy

If we are pulling the Hydrogen away from the HHO we're not getting 2/3 volume?

I had a feeling that was your question. Here is something I posted on another thread in this forum.

finallyME Wrote:Before you make a good comparison, you need to set the numbers together.

Hydrodine's numbers are at 6 amps. So, take his production and divide by 6. This gives production of Hydrogen for every 1 amp. Do the same with the HHO generator. Put the production and amp draw together and then divide by whatever number is needed to make 1 amp. Also, if the HHO generator is a seven plate design, then that makes 6 cells. So you have to divide by 6 again. Remember that you need to compare apples to apples to make a fair judgment.
and
finallyME Wrote:Here are the numbers I got for comparison. I am comparing the numbers hydrodine posted and the ones I found on the Smack's website.

Hydrodine's has one cell: 6 amps=3 L/hr
Smacks has 8 cells= 1.7 L/min : 1 cell= .2125 L/min at 20 amps
6 amps = 3.825 L/hr of HHO : 6 amps = 2.55 L/hr of H2 only

So, hydrodine is at .5 L/hr for every amp, and Smacks is at .425 L/hr for every amp.

Hopefully this clears it up. Remember that the big producing HHO cells are multi-cells in series. Smacks design is a good example of 8 cells in series in a single container. Also, for ONE cell, the theoretical maximum from Faraday is 10.5 cc/min per amp at STP. You can see bigger numbers than that because STP is not what the hydrogen sees in the cells in our cars. There is a link somewhere on this forum to the Faraday equation. I think it has a Tero cell on it (or is it a Tero cell link with the Faraday equation on it, I was only interested in the equation Crazy Big Grin Big Grin).

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09-19-2008 11:52 AM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #10
RE: amount of H2 and O2 coming out- theory...and Post Bang
My first tube unit with one anode and four cathodes did 300ml/min. comparing to hydrodine's 50ml/min. with one pair. I had a few more amps and a lot of heat.
Today saw the first fireoff of my 3 cell dry separator...
Output was racing along at over 20 amps, put it in series and it died - would need of course the stronger electrolyte. It appears to be ready to make some serious gas, but I think the formulas put up by finallyME will still apply.
Dang thing weighs about ten pounds or more, size of a football.
10-05-2008 05:26 PM
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