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cell conditioning
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chynewalker Offline
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Post: #1
cell conditioning
hi,

I just completed building my cell (that i copied from s10 hybrid) along with all the related components. I see everone talks about conditioning there cells but nowhere can i find specifics on how to do it. someone mentions running them at low amps for such and such period of time, ok how do i accomplish that? use only distilled water? i do know conditioning leaves the plates with a thin white film over them.

all i have done so far is sand the plates in two directions and ran it for about 15 minutes just to see this thing work.

i think we need to make a frequently asked questions post for newbiesSmile
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2008 09:36 AM by chynewalker.)
06-13-2008 09:31 AM
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jksav7 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: cell conditioning
Yes, only use pure distilled water for best results.

Here is a quote taken from Eletrik's website, http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com :


"How do I prepare and condition my plates?

The following is extracted from the Bob Boyce files. Bob is one of the foremost experts on this subject. Certain portions have been removed because they do not pertain to this particular design.

At no time are the plates to be handled with bare hands. Use clean rubber gloves to handle the plates.

1. Plate Preparation

First, you must deeply crosshatch the plates in an X pattern. Sandblasting or using an orbital sander will NOT work the same. This sanding is typically done by hand or on a belt sander using 60 or 80 grit sandpaper.

Rinse the plates clean of particulate matter. Acids or other cleansing chemicals are never to be used on the plates. The only chemicals that should EVER touch these plates are sodium hydroxide and/or potassium hydroxide. Clean tap water (not city water though due to all the chlorine and other chemicals added) may be used to rinse, but distilled water only is to used for final rinse.

2. Cell Assembly

Assemble the plates into the series cell container. Mix up a dilute solution (5% to 10% by weight) of sodium hydroxide in distilled water. Pour this solution into the series cell container until the solution is just covering the plates totally.

3. Plate Cleansing

During this stage, we are operating in submerged plate condition, where the liquid level is maintained just over the plates. Run this cell stack at full power for several hours at a time, which can be 4 amps or more. As the cell stack runs, the boiling action will loosen particulate from the pores and surfaces of the metal. Be sure to do this in a well vented area. Shut down and pour this solution into a container. Rinse the cells well with distilled water. Filter the dilute solution through paper towels or coffee filters to remove particulate. Pour the dilute solution back in and repeat this cleansing process. You may have to rinse and repeat many times until the cells stop putting out particulate matter into the solution. Optionally, you can use new solution each time you cleanse, but be forwarned, you can go through a lot of solution just in this cleansing stage. When cleansing is finished (typically 3 days of cleansing), do a final rinse with clean distilled water.

4. Plate Conditioning

Using the same concentration of solution as in cleansing, now fill the cell stack with dilute solution. Monitor current draw. If current draw is fairly stable, continue with this conditioning phase straight for 2 to 3 days, adding distilled water to just replace what is consumed. If the solution turns color or skims over with crud, the cell stack needs more cleansing stages. After 2 to 3 days of run time, pour out the diluted solution and rinse well with distilled water.



This document is copyrighted, and all information contained within is not for commercial use or distribution without prior written permission of the copyright holder."





chynewalker Wrote:hi,

I just completed building my cell (that i copied from s10 hybrid) along with all the related components. I see everone talks about conditioning there cells but nowhere can i find specifics on how to do it. someone mentions running them at low amps for such and such period of time, ok how do i accomplish that? use only distilled water? i do know conditioning leaves the plates with a thin white film over them.

all i have done so far is sand the plates in two directions and ran it for about 15 minutes just to see this thing work.

i think we need to make a frequently asked questions post for newbiesSmile
06-13-2008 12:49 PM
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chynewalker Offline
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Post: #3
RE: cell conditioning
thanks,

pretty much what i have been doing minus sodium hydroxide
06-13-2008 01:41 PM
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owen1969 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: cell conditioning
I sure hope the plates are not considered no good if you never done this.... I took plates handled with hands and put in soda solution for testing purposes , I suppose I can still do this over as ststed to recondition right?

jksav7 Wrote:Yes, only use pure distilled water for best results.

Here is a quote taken from Eletrik's website, http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com :


"How do I prepare and condition my plates?

The following is extracted from the Bob Boyce files. Bob is one of the foremost experts on this subject. Certain portions have been removed because they do not pertain to this particular design.

At no time are the plates to be handled with bare hands. Use clean rubber gloves to handle the plates.

1. Plate Preparation

First, you must deeply crosshatch the plates in an X pattern. Sandblasting or using an orbital sander will NOT work the same. This sanding is typically done by hand or on a belt sander using 60 or 80 grit sandpaper.

Rinse the plates clean of particulate matter. Acids or other cleansing chemicals are never to be used on the plates. The only chemicals that should EVER touch these plates are sodium hydroxide and/or potassium hydroxide. Clean tap water (not city water though due to all the chlorine and other chemicals added) may be used to rinse, but distilled water only is to used for final rinse.

2. Cell Assembly

Assemble the plates into the series cell container. Mix up a dilute solution (5% to 10% by weight) of sodium hydroxide in distilled water. Pour this solution into the series cell container until the solution is just covering the plates totally.

3. Plate Cleansing

During this stage, we are operating in submerged plate condition, where the liquid level is maintained just over the plates. Run this cell stack at full power for several hours at a time, which can be 4 amps or more. As the cell stack runs, the boiling action will loosen particulate from the pores and surfaces of the metal. Be sure to do this in a well vented area. Shut down and pour this solution into a container. Rinse the cells well with distilled water. Filter the dilute solution through paper towels or coffee filters to remove particulate. Pour the dilute solution back in and repeat this cleansing process. You may have to rinse and repeat many times until the cells stop putting out particulate matter into the solution. Optionally, you can use new solution each time you cleanse, but be forwarned, you can go through a lot of solution just in this cleansing stage. When cleansing is finished (typically 3 days of cleansing), do a final rinse with clean distilled water.

4. Plate Conditioning

Using the same concentration of solution as in cleansing, now fill the cell stack with dilute solution. Monitor current draw. If current draw is fairly stable, continue with this conditioning phase straight for 2 to 3 days, adding distilled water to just replace what is consumed. If the solution turns color or skims over with crud, the cell stack needs more cleansing stages. After 2 to 3 days of run time, pour out the diluted solution and rinse well with distilled water.



This document is copyrighted, and all information contained within is not for commercial use or distribution without prior written permission of the copyright holder."





chynewalker Wrote:hi,

I just completed building my cell (that i copied from s10 hybrid) along with all the related components. I see everone talks about conditioning there cells but nowhere can i find specifics on how to do it. someone mentions running them at low amps for such and such period of time, ok how do i accomplish that? use only distilled water? i do know conditioning leaves the plates with a thin white film over them.

all i have done so far is sand the plates in two directions and ran it for about 15 minutes just to see this thing work.

i think we need to make a frequently asked questions post for newbiesSmile
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2008 11:34 AM by colchiro.)
06-15-2008 09:17 PM
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jksav7 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: cell conditioning
I myself have wondered exactly how critical all these steps are. I've heard Bob Boyce say that the plates can be resanded if they have been contaminated by one thing or another.

Your plates will still produce gas even if they've been contaminated. It's a matter of whether or not they reach their potential when it comes to this conditioning process.




owen1969 Wrote:I sure hope the plates are not considered no good if you never done this.... I took plates handled with hands and put in soda solution for testing purposes , I suppose I can still do this over as ststed to recondition right?
06-16-2008 03:28 AM
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jdram58 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: cell conditioning
Gee here we are in the middle of an or a real energy type crisis. With potential to change a lot of peoples attitudes and to open their eyes to other possibilities. But this technology is still in its infancy even sort of hap hazard.

This is far from seamless anything!

The only thing I can recommend from my limited ability or understanding is go to any auto parts store and buy you a battery charger the one I use only puts out 1.5 volt trickle charge. There might be better ones out there but I don't know for sure?

This would be a good time for some one more mechanically inclined to open that mouth! And say there are much better units with such and such out- put? Or some sort of step down transformer from Dc to AC or vice versa.

Which even I feel is just not enough currant for testing or conditioning these cell plates because it only produces gas for a few seconds and then shuts off. Maybe some of these mechanical geniuses on here could losen up their tongues and help out a little more with more detail.

The only other way I can think of to test it would be to hook it up to your car's electrical system temporarily with the engine running and vent the gas away from the car or engine. And then be able to unhook and remove it would be the simplest or cheapest method besides going out and buying all this extra electrical charging equipment or junk.

Really I know or believe this technology can and does work but too many things can go wrong and we have to fight or try to work around systems that are in place and that work against this technology. This is far from a seamless operation the people who really need to know this stuff are mostly mechanic's! But changing their minds is often not such an easy thing either cuz they are caught in between the known or popular beliefs and methods and myths and this seemingly new frontier.

One good thing I have found is the idea that to save gas you have to some how lose peformence when in fact it is quite the opposit many times you gain power and perfomence when everything is working as it should be.

But really the simplest thing just heating your fuel and adding water or simple water injection without the HHO electrolysis can improve power and fuel mileage.

Or in my case finding a way to unhook my AWD transmission even just temporarily would add some power and mileage perhaps all I need to survive this crummy time and gas price gouging!

But several things you need to keep in mind is to make sure you can open up your cell some how because all these plates are going to dissolve over time and need to be replaced.

And I talk about the Hyzor by Eagle research and high consitrations of electrolyte but the Hyzor in this manual is a heavy welded steel box. He is not talking about some flimsy glass or even plastic PVC cointainer So these guys like the Smack using what seems like small amounts of electrolyte afre more practical.

So me saying this once before was actually "a big mistake"! My apologies! This is a learning process and it is "a totally different animal" then the types of construction using glass or PVC I have been using and or experiemnting with which are the most common plastic or glass !

Because the unit talked about in this Hyzor Manual is not some "flimsy plastic model" but a heavy welded steel container that can handle the extra pressure of a much stronger solution consintration and higher heat and is more rugged and the top or lid is bolted down onto the unit. This would be the optimuim container but probably not the most affordable!

I was also looking at this or his Upside down TEE type PVC electrolyzer "Mini Hyzor" design but doubt if he recommends the same consintrations of solutions. That one is probably closer to what the Smack recommends for solution consintrations.

Really Some guy on another blog stated getting stated getting 60 mpg using a simpler device for his gas on a Honda CRX.

Not having to mess with all this junk. Really what would be nice is some type of currant limiter or adjustment nob that you can adjust on any given electrolyzer.

Instead of relays and fuses and breakers and switches that burn up or wear out or wires come loose or can't take the intense load!

And the newbie idea is good and nothing new as I recommended it myself as a sort of dumb it down type deal show us pictures of tools used and equipment and actual hands on stuff! Show us how to solder or what a PWM looks like how it is used adjusted and set up.

Give us basic diagrams! I found one for hooking up and electrolyzer from a PWM instruction from a kit! That is the only one I have found that i could really understand. And that showed with or without the PWM hooked up from Hydrogen garage.com. Very nice drawings and everything is marked how to hook it all up and what goes where. This almost anyone with a little mechanical knowledge could do and you have a picture right there to help you.




.doc  Relay wiring.doc (Size: 202.5 KB / Downloads: 535)

I will probably get shot for this but it is a good simple pic for simple people like me. And it may save people a lot of time money and questions. I don have or use an ameter or voltmeter either though it is probably a good idea. And my system worked very well for a while but I think either the switch keeps shorting out or a circuit breaker. Or my Electrolyte could be too strong as well!

I think the main thing about the plate preperation is to rough up the metal like if you were going to paint them so the primer or paint would stick better. Plus if you buy plate covers like for the Smack from Lowes they are coated in a clear rubber type coating or maybe something else like some chemical treatment. So needless to say you won't get much gas production from plates that are protected or insulated with a plastic or rubber coating.

So this is why they recommend sanding them with as course as possible sand paper or having the sand blasted and tickling them with a center puch and a hammer or even an engraver like the Smack booster recommends.

Some metals like SS plate covers are coated or protected from electricity to reduce the possibility of shock.

I have even used a hack saw blade just to rough up the metal when it seemed like the sander wasn't doing the job. I even think a rough or course grinder would work pretty good.
07-06-2008 09:08 PM
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rudagray Offline
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Post: #7
RE: cell conditioning
For someone trying to keep things simple jdram58 that was a long hard read...but helpful.

My 2 cents on the subject and comments info shared...

I believe you could use Vinegar for cleaning, yes it is acidic, but if you then rinse in distilled water and you are using an electrolyte with NaOH or KOH it will neutralize the remaining acid...

I think the vinegar concentration experiment from HS is coming to mind... Titration ring any bells... I think this link and blanks to fill is straight out of the Chemistry Lab book I used 20 years ago...
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/H...-C-15.html
07-18-2008 11:41 AM
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waterboy1 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: cell conditioning
rudagray Wrote:For someone trying to keep things simple jdram58 that was a long hard read...but helpful.

My 2 cents on the subject and comments info shared...

I believe you could use Vinegar for cleaning, yes it is acidic, but if you then rinse in distilled water and you are using an electrolyte with NaOH or KOH it will neutralize the remaining acid...

I think the vinegar concentration experiment from HS is coming to mind... Titration ring any bells... I think this link and blanks to fill is straight out of the Chemistry Lab book I used 20 years ago...
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/H...-C-15.html

OK- I'll add my 2 cents worth---In my experience, you may or may not sand the plates, dimple them or not. I have built 2 cells using the switch plate covers from Lowes, and yes they are 304 stainless, but I have tried 316L welding rod in earlier cells and get a lot more production with the plates. Don't really know if the sanding or dimples help or not since I was too lazy , or too big a rush to try it. Gasp One thing that I have found out is that since I switched to NaOH from baking soda, I have not problems with mud or rust or whatever. I have also found that after prolonged running (1-3 hours) as the water heats up, or plates get purified (??) the production goes up and the amps go up some ( mine went from 4.65 amps to 8 amps). Got pretty hot, but not so much to make steam. Just changing water and amt. of NaOH today. I think that if I start with less electrolyte and lower amps, I can get a happy medium where I do not draw so much amps and still get the production. One thing that I don't think I have read anywhere else is if you change the + and - connections around on the cell I got more production after several swaps. Note this was done on the work bench while I was breaking in or conditioning the plates. Also these were plates that I had used in an earlier cell that I wanted to change for more production and I had used baking soda in that cell. As I switched the + and - around, I got crud floating on top of my solution.
Also for you new guys, I also learned the hard way--be sure to use heavy enough wire to the connections on your cell from the battery (on test bench and in vehicle) or the wires will get very hot and the screws or bolts will too and you can melt a hole in your cell container. I am using 10 gauge stranded wire now and the heat is much less even with higher amps.
08-02-2008 09:22 AM
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hydrogenpro Offline
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Post: #9
RE: cell conditioning
yes..you want to scuff them up with 36 grit sand paper...put it in KOH (AKA potassium hydroxide) for 3 days...run it with the battery charger or just run in your car....or the easy way is to buy them already primed, sanded, and ready to go. You should only use distilled water also and 20 316 SS plates. Perfectly spaced for low heat... http://www.firstelement.net has the best pre-made unit on the market that kicks butt.
09-25-2008 05:29 PM
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breakz funky beats Offline
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Post: #10
RE: cell conditioning
Can I use laptop ac adapter to condition cells? Confused I don't feel like buying additional charger just for that...

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09-28-2008 09:34 PM
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