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how much KOH?
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alscrimp Offline
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Post: #1
how much KOH?
I currently use baking soda (which means I have to deal with the residue and possible clogging of the outputs). I would like to change to KOH after reading all of the forums. How much should I use that will be comparable to 1/2 tsp of baking soda? Also how much do I use for refills?
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2009 01:51 AM by alscrimp.)
09-30-2009 01:50 AM
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mike Offline
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Post: #2
RE: how much KOH?
All I can tell you is that you should start out using a lot less.

The best way to do it is to measure your current amp draw. Then add KOH until your amp draw comes back up to the same point.

I've never seen a conversion ratio between baking soda and KOH. I think you're going to have to do it by trial and error, as above.

When you get to what you think will be the final amount, check that your electrolyte isn't overheating periodically. Do this until you're comfortable with the fact that your mix will behave itself over long periods of production.

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09-30-2009 08:51 AM
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diablo8109 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: how much KOH?
Alscimp.
you need to cutting the amount of baking sode that you use by at least 1/2 if not more. If you use 1/2 baking soda I would start with 1/8 KOH. I have done a lot of work using both and found that if you do not cut the amount of KOH verses baking soda you will over heat every time. I hope this helps as a starting point. Then use mike said to test your mixture.

Larry
Cutting Edge Water4Gas
09-30-2009 10:53 AM
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alscrimp Offline
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Post: #4
RE: how much KOH?
Thanks guys. While we are on this subject, I have 2 heavily modified W4G cells I'm using that are wired in series. I have both outlets going into a custom made manifold which exits into the air intake before the throttle valve (got tired of the manifold vacuum destroying the plastic covers). Because I'm using intake air and not manifold vacuum, my bubblers built in to the cells are not working. Do I need a bubbler at all?
10-01-2009 07:23 AM
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mike Offline
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Post: #5
RE: how much KOH?
You didn't really have a bubbler before. A bubbler is used to create a positive break between your cell and the engine. Imagine if the engine had a backfire and ignited the hydrogen in the feed hose. If there were nothing between the intake and your cells, the flashback would go straight back and ignite inside your 2 cells. A bubbler is a device that sits between your cell(s) and the engine, so that if a flashback occurs, it stops at the bubbler. It has the intake tube (from your cell) go under water where it must bubble up to get to the output tube (which goes to the engine). Some people use check valved for this function, but I'm not sure that these will be effective. I've heard conflicting reports about that, but I haven't experimented with them myself.

In the water4gas materials, they point out that the bubbling effect that the vacuum causes has an additional effect. It causes some more water mist to get into the engine. Water injection has been found to improve combustion all by itself. You won't get much mist from the "bubbler" effect of pulling air through your cells from the engine vacuum, but the effect should not be discounted.

Overall, in my opinion, one should never run HHO into their vacuum system. HHO has all the elements it needs for combustion, and I don't like the idea of HHO being in the power brake system, among other things.

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10-01-2009 07:45 AM
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diablo8109 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: how much KOH?
Hello
As far as the bubbler goes. If the bubbler is built in your cell that is a good idea. This is the reason why it is not working when you are just use intake air for your HHO wet or dry cell. There is not enough vaccum at idle to get a good suction to create a negitive vaccum in the cell to move outside air in to the cell. When you advance the throttle you should get some bubbles out of the bubbler. A far as the vaccum for the manifold distroying you covers you just did not have the bubbler open enough.

I know there has been alot of talk about weather you should use manifold vacuum or not. I do use manifold vacuum and intake vacuum. I use a check valve to make sure the there is no vacuum issues between the intake vacuum and manifold vacuum. The thing to remember is that even at higher speeds you can loss vacuum through the intake system. Also make sure that you install the hose from the HHO cell to the correct place in the intake system. Do not forget the the intake system are design to flow the air a curtain flow pattern. So if you install the fitting for the hose to close to the throttle body or in a bend you might disturb the air flow to much. It only take a little to make a differance to drop our performance of the intake system to make you loss some of the gains from using the system. This is why ram air system can and will increase MPG and horse power so much. Because they do not just count on vacuum from the engine to get ait to the engine. It rams the air down the intake system. The manifold always has good vaccum at low speeds and high speeds. So it is great to use because it will make for smoother tranistions while driving in the city and highway. The trick is to connect to the correct vacuum source. The PCV valve is create source for manifold vaccum. This is the best source for the best air your engine will get if you use a PVC enhancer of some sort. The PCV enhancer will clean out all the oil and mositure before it will get to the HHO and allow the HHO to mix with 99% clean air. Then go into the manifold and mix with the fuel air mixture. In the research and testing that I have done I have found both vacuum sources is better then just one source.

So I you decide to just use the intake air I would open your bubbler 1 1/2 clicks no more.

Larry
Cutting Edge Water4Gas
10-02-2009 01:00 AM
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alscrimp Offline
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Post: #7
RE: how much KOH?
(10-02-2009 01:00 AM)diablo8109 Wrote:  Hello
As far as the bubbler goes. If the bubbler is built in your cell that is a good idea. This is the reason why it is not working when you are just use intake air for your HHO wet or dry cell. There is not enough vaccum at idle to get a good suction to create a negitive vaccum in the cell to move outside air in to the cell. When you advance the throttle you should get some bubbles out of the bubbler. A far as the vaccum for the manifold distroying you covers you just did not have the bubbler open enough.

I know there has been alot of talk about weather you should use manifold vacuum or not. I do use manifold vacuum and intake vacuum. I use a check valve to make sure the there is no vacuum issues between the intake vacuum and manifold vacuum. The thing to remember is that even at higher speeds you can loss vacuum through the intake system. Also make sure that you install the hose from the HHO cell to the correct place in the intake system. Do not forget the the intake system are design to flow the air a curtain flow pattern. So if you install the fitting for the hose to close to the throttle body or in a bend you might disturb the air flow to much. It only take a little to make a differance to drop our performance of the intake system to make you loss some of the gains from using the system. This is why ram air system can and will increase MPG and horse power so much. Because they do not just count on vacuum from the engine to get ait to the engine. It rams the air down the intake system. The manifold always has good vaccum at low speeds and high speeds. So it is great to use because it will make for smoother tranistions while driving in the city and highway. The trick is to connect to the correct vacuum source. The PCV valve is create source for manifold vaccum. This is the best source for the best air your engine will get if you use a PVC enhancer of some sort. The PCV enhancer will clean out all the oil and mositure before it will get to the HHO and allow the HHO to mix with 99% clean air. Then go into the manifold and mix with the fuel air mixture. In the research and testing that I have done I have found both vacuum sources is better then just one source.

So I you decide to just use the intake air I would open your bubbler 1 1/2 clicks no more.

Thanks, Larry. You seem to know your stuff!! I am also using a central manifold between the 2 cells and the intake air connection. Is this OK? I read somewhere that a central manifold to tie the cells together will give a better flow of HHO than just teeing them together. By the way, I have my intake air connection right in front of the throttle valve. I noticed a significant performance improvement with this arrangement especially at low speeds. So you are saying it is best to use both manifold vacuum and intake air vacuum? What did you use as a check valve for the intake vacuum? How did you install this? When I first installed this system, as per instructions, I had both vacuums setup and noticed that the idle went irratic. I was causing a huge vacuum leak by the manifold vacuum sucking out the intake air. So your idea of a check valve on the intake vacuum is a great idea. Where did you purchase this check valve? Right now I am getting between an 6 - 8 MPG improvement, but I drive 200 miles everyday so I would like more.
10-02-2009 02:13 AM
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diablo8109 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: how much KOH?
Hello
Using a manifold for more then one cell for collecting the HHO from the cells has some good points and some bad ones. As long as you make sure that the output can get equal amounts of HHO from all the cells then it works good. One of the bad points about using a manifold like that you need a low point in the manifold. Remember the moisture will collect in the manifold from the making of the HHO. The moisture will settle in the lowest point. So make sure the the input fittings to the manifold are at least 1/8" inside the manifold. This will keep the moisture below the HHO output. You also need to make sure that the outlet fitting is almost flush with the manifold on the inside. This way you do not get HHO just sitting on the top of the manifold. This is very important if you are not using manifold vacuum and just using intake vacuum. These two things are very important if you live in area with really hot summers and cold winters. Your manifold could produce to much moisture and either freeze or just make the HHO have to much water in the summer.

The reason you had the problem with the vacuum before is you did not have the check valves installed. The check valves keep just what you said from happening. I installed the system on an ford sport trac. It had the V8 in it and it had issue with the trans. with out the chek valves installed. The check valve keeps direction of the vacuum going in the correct way. remember that you have them hocked up to your cell or cell manifold so when one source has more vacuum you will draw air from the lower vacuum. That is never good ever. I will give you the part number of the check valve when I get back home. I am out of town as this moment. You can also email my at my web site and I will sent it to you there. I will also post it on here. If any one else might want it. They are cheep to buy. I think you will see better over all HHO mixture to your engine when you use both. Try with a check valve in both vacuum lines and see what happens. If it does not seem to help or you loss some increases then remove the check valve from the intake side first and see what happens. If it does not help reinstall the check valve in the intake side and remove the valve from the manifold side. This should do the trick.

Larry
Cutting Edge Water4Gas
10-02-2009 06:21 PM
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diablo8109 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: how much KOH?
Hello
Here a few part numbers for the check valves and places to get them from. p/n # r-723 from http://www.resenex.com/r-723.php or p/n # 64048 usplastic.com or p/n # a1175 mpc-inc.com

Larry
Cutting Edge Water4Gas
10-04-2009 11:38 AM
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alscrimp Offline
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Post: #10
RE: how much KOH?
(10-04-2009 11:38 AM)diablo8109 Wrote:  Hello
Here a few part numbers for the check valves and places to get them from. p/n # r-723 from http://www.resenex.com/r-723.php or p/n # 64048 usplastic.com or p/n # a1175 mpc-inc.com

Thank you for the info. Now another question. How do you know when to put more KOH in? I see by the other posts that you only have to replenish the water when the level goes down. Right? But there has to be a time when you have to replenish the KOH. Sorry for all of the questions but it is good to have a knowledgeable person. Thanks, Al.
10-05-2009 02:28 AM
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