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multiple cells in series
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wes77 Offline
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Post: #1
multiple cells in series
If you wire cells in series, should you modify the plate configuration in the cells as the voltage is then dropped across two sets of plates (two cells)?

Meaning, 6v dropped across the first cell and 6v dropped across the second cell (12v total) so you would want to decrease the amount of neutrals in each cell to 1 or 2 between +- pairs to get back to the efficient 2v (approv) levels per plate gap (resistor)?

12v in [- (-2v) n (-2v) n (-2v) +] [- (-2v) n (-2v) n (-2v) +] 0v out

I am probably thinking incorrectly or missing something as my electronics knowledge is pretty thin as well as dated Smile Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Wes
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2008 11:21 AM by wes77.)
12-02-2008 11:21 AM
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AlexR Offline
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Post: #2
RE: multiple cells in series
Depends on if your neutrals are isolating each unit into 3 seperate cells or not.

If they are, then it will work. If not then you just have 2 parallel cells, each at 6 volts.

Alex

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http://www.cool-flame.com
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2008 11:42 AM by AlexR.)
12-02-2008 11:40 AM
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wes77 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: multiple cells in series
AlexR Wrote:Depends on if your neutrals are isolating each unit into 3 seperate cells or not.

If they are, then it will work. If not then you just have 2 parallel cells, each at 6 volts.

hmmm? I apologize, but I don't completely follow... (probably my lack of electrical knowledge). Maybe I should elaborate more... The cell type is the twister style cup cell. I know, I know... brick in a bath, but it is cheap and solid.

In one enclosure I have a vertically arranged +nnnn-nnnn+ cup configuration. If I was to add a second identical cell, what is the best way to add it? wire in series? or parallel? and if one or the other is better, would I want to change anything in my plate configuration to keep things efficient?

Please keep answers in layman's terms if possible. Thanks in advance for your help Smile

-Wes
12-02-2008 01:09 PM
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wes77 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: multiple cells in series
Ahhh... I just read your series cell post. How is the Hyzor constructed? The only series cell that I have seen is the so called dry cell or wouter tube cell.

-Wes
12-02-2008 01:24 PM
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AlexR Offline
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Post: #5
RE: multiple cells in series
wes77 Wrote:The cell type is the twister style cup cell. I know, I know... brick in a bath, but it is cheap and solid.

In one enclosure I have a vertically arranged +nnnn-nnnn+ cup configuration. If I was to add a second identical cell, what is the best way to add it? wire in series? or parallel? and if one or the other is better, would I want to change anything in my plate configuration to keep things efficient?

The brick in bath is a parallel cell. If you use two that are totally separate - meaning different baths - and wire them in series then you will have a series cell made up of 2 parallel cells.

Each would be running at 7 volts - since your electrical system is running at 14 volts. If you are looking for an efficient series cell then it's best to have 6 of those, each would run a bit over 2 volts. I don't know how big your setup is but I would imagine 6 of those would take up quite a bit of room.

Alex

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12-02-2008 02:27 PM
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alpha-dog Offline
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Post: #6
RE: multiple cells in series
AlexR Wrote:
wes77 Wrote:The cell type is the twister style cup cell. I know, I know... brick in a bath, but it is cheap and solid.

In one enclosure I have a vertically arranged +nnnn-nnnn+ cup configuration. If I was to add a second identical cell, what is the best way to add it? wire in series? or parallel? and if one or the other is better, would I want to change anything in my plate configuration to keep things efficient?

The brick in bath is a parallel cell. If you use two that are totally separate - meaning different baths - and wire them in series then you will have a series cell made up of 2 parallel cells.

Each would be running at 7 volts - since your electrical system is running at 14 volts. If you are looking for an efficient series cell then it's best to have 6 of those, each would run a bit over 2 volts. I don't know how big your setup is but I would imagine 6 of those would take up quite a bit of room.

This is a series cell -NNNN+
This are two series cells in parallel -NNNN+NNNN-
Russ
12-02-2008 03:17 PM
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AlexR Offline
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Post: #7
RE: multiple cells in series
alpha-dog Wrote:This is a series cell -NNNN+
This are two series cells in parallel -NNNN+NNNN-
Russ

The above, -NNNN+ is only a series cell if each cell is isolated from the other ones. A few plates creating interference between the pos and neg does not constitute a series cell.

Alex

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12-02-2008 05:29 PM
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alpha-dog Offline
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Post: #8
RE: multiple cells in series
AlexR Wrote:
alpha-dog Wrote:This is a series cell -NNNN+
This are two series cells in parallel -NNNN+NNNN-
Russ

The above, -NNNN+ is only a series cell if each cell is isolated from the other ones. A few plates creating interference between the pos and neg does not constitute a series cell.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say but series configuration is one path from (+) to (-) or ground.
Parallel is two or more paths.
In other words if your cell configuration is +NN-NN+NN- you have three series cells connected in parallel. That is why the difference between the (+) and (-) poles of every series cell is 12~14vdc. If you read from (+) to (+) or (-) to (-) you will read 0vdc. Parallel configuration divides current ( not voltage ) depending upon the load of each series circuit connected in parallel. Series will divide the voltage depending of the load of each part on the cell ( voltage divider ).
Also +NNN- or +- or -NNNNN+ or -N+ all are series cells. One path constitutes a series circuit. Kinda makes sense huh!
Russ
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2008 06:50 PM by alpha-dog.)
12-02-2008 06:15 PM
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AlexR Offline
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Post: #9
RE: multiple cells in series
alpha-dog Wrote:I'm not sure what you are trying to say but series configuration is one path from (+) to (-) or ground.
Parallel is two or more paths.

Russ,

I have to disagree with the above. I'll also elaborate on what I said above.

A parallel plate cell is +- Thats it.

A series cell is made up of several parallel plate designs chained together. This can be done 2 ways.

They can be individual plate in bath designs where say three are connected together like this,

(1) (2) (3)
+- +- +-

(Numbers) to label each cell.
These are totally physically separate parallel cells where a wire is connecting each cell together. Each cell has a separate reservoir and needs to be filled individually.

#1 pos to 14 v.
#1 neg to the #2 pos with wire.
#2 neg to #3 pos with wire.
#3 neg to neg (ground).

I only showed 3 for clarity. 6 cells is best for 14 volts.

Here is a better design - less parts and a common reservoir. Same 3 cells.

+NN-

The neutral plates act each like a pos and neg. One side is neg and the other pos. The current flows through the electrolyte and through the plates from neg to pos, making BG along the way.

The important part is that the neutral plates seal each cell from each other. If there is no seal then the electricity just flows through the electrolyte around the plates making little gas. A small hole in the plates is OK to equalize the electrolyte between plates and at the top to allow the gas to escape.


I've seen a lot of neutral plates used in parallel plate designs. Looks like many are the "brick-in-bath" type. These plates seem to be used to add "interference" between the pos and neg plates, basically trying to keep the amp flow in check. They act as resistors. Again another reason the series cell is superior, amperage runaway is not a problem.

Alex

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http://www.cool-flame.com
12-05-2008 05:16 AM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #10
RE: multiple cells in series
Exactly. You finally earned your cookie under your handle!
One term I've not seen used here, goes way back to the original Smack pdf instructions, was "series-parallell". It sort of helps define and clear things up, but then you HAVE to get into what was just said about what I call 'current forwarding' with the brickinnabath units.
I.E.- a smack may be series-parallell, but that does not make it more efficient, which is why he'd started wrapping his later units to offset a little of the forwarding currents...long after I saw many wrapping their bricks with pop bottles and stuff.
Guess what he sells now?
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2008 05:51 AM by Gary.)
12-05-2008 05:51 AM
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