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not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
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onewingman Offline
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Post: #1
Sad not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
So, here we go...11 plate cell, -+-+-+-+-+-, well U get the idea..If we run it w/ a dilute baking soda solution, say enough to draw ONLY 30 amps(!!!) we getting maybe a 1/2 LPM, by the time we're @ 1LPM we're pulling about 60, we did 2LPM @ 100+amps!!! (using more & more electrolyte...)
Using NaOH has not significantly altered the draw...or production.

We've tried the peroxide/baking soda cocktail, a peroxide NaOH cocktail, and finally we threw in the kitchen sink and did a HO2, NaOH, baking soda...Nothing earth shattering occured...but there was a bunch of that brown crap swirling around!
We're running the plates in 1500cc's of TAP water. The plates we're not crossed hatched, nor conditioned, nor are there any neutral plates.

I have a 2LPM minimum goal...

It seems as it, after reading some of the posts, We've got to go back to the drawing board and rework the plates.
If anyone has some better ways, orders of importance, orders of operations, cell mods, etc, I would greatly apprciate your input and advice.
Thanks, George
PS. I would really love to drive a bug up the oil companies industrial, collective BUTTS...I mean a VW BUG!!! Of, course as big a bunch of BUTTS as those SOB's are, they probably wouldn't notice...what's one more bug in that MASSIVE parking garage...lolSmileSmile
12-20-2008 04:55 PM
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hydrotinkerer Offline
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Post: #2
RE: not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
Here is a dry cell I built that will do 2lpm@30amps: http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=2421
12-20-2008 05:23 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #3
RE: not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
I assume this is a bunch of plates in a container filled with liquid (a wet cell).

What do you get if you just put power on the two outside plates and one center one like this:

[- N N N N + N N N N -]

... and then wrap the entire thing is something insulated, like heat shrink to insulate the outside edges?

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
12-20-2008 09:21 PM
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onewingman Offline
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Wink RE: not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
colchiro Wrote:I assume this is a bunch of plates in a container filled with liquid (a wet cell).

What do you get if you just put power on the two outside plates and one center one like this:

[- N N N N + N N N N -]

... and then wrap the entire thing is something insulated, like heat shrink to insulate the outside edges?
Hey, Rick, thanks for getting back to me. Yeah, it is an 11 plate series in a tank filled with an electrolyte. I haven't tried the 3 plate hot and the rest neutrals. Also, by wrapping with an insulator like shrink wrap, do you mean to put the entire plate pack in a shringk wrap sleeve?
What I am planning for today is disassembling and sanding a 90 degree cross-hatch on both sides of all the plates and reassembling with 3/16" spacers, doing the distilled water rinses and conditioning...w/ gloves, and seeing what happens then.
Have you done the neutral plates as you described and if so, what electrolyte solution did you use, what was your plate size and configuration, and how much gas did you produce? In LPM?
I really apprecite the input, thanks, George
PS can't wait to laugh in the faces of the oil co's! Big GrinBig Grin
12-22-2008 11:26 AM
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onewingman Offline
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Post: #5
RE: not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
hydrotinkerer Wrote:Here is a dry cell I built that will do 2lpm@30amps: http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=2421
Thanks for getting back to me. I have a couple of questions, if you would be so kind as to clarify a couple of things>>>:

So, by dry cell, you mean the centers are dry, but the whole pack is still immersed in electrlyte?... I am struglling with the holes and electrolyte circulation through the holes in the plates, then...It's probably a simple enough situation, but it's one of those things where you're so familiar w/ it, it's like the saying to you I have a nose in the middle of my face...I'm still trying to figure out which side of the head the nose in on...
Thanks for your help, GeorgeSmile
12-22-2008 11:49 AM
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colchiro Offline
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RE: not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
Hi George.

To improve efficiency, you want about 2 to 2.5 volts across each set of plates, that's why you'd just apply power to the outside plates in a cell. The neutral plates in the middle divide up the voltage between the outside plates.

Wrapping just means insulating the cell plates from the bath, except for whatever it takes to let electrolyte in and gas out. Wrapping a set of plates with a large tube of heat shrink or heavy plastic or tape (or whatever works) will keep stray currents to a minimum, increasing efficiency. Ideally the cell would be completely wrapped, with openings just big enough for gas to leave and electrolyte to enter.

I had an under-performing single bank switch plate cell running KOh, that was too small for my vehicle so had minimal gains. Now I have a new vehicle and an eleven plate 6 in. x 6 in. dry cell on the bench, waiting for warmer weather. So far we've had highs of zero or below so that's not going to happen any time soon. You can find some good cell principles described in the Smacks booster. plans website FWIW, there's pics of Smack's dry cell here. I'm not saying to make a Smacks cell, but his plans are one of the few that are available for free online.

All cells have electrolyte between the plates otherwise you'd get no electrolysis (gas). A dry cell has no electrolyte surrounding it like you'd have with plates in a bath, which increases efficiency quite a bit. Searching for dry cell and look at the pics should make things clearer.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
12-22-2008 03:13 PM
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realtyroy Offline
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Post: #7
RE: not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
Reading about the Smacks cell is good information but if you read that and are still thirsty for more than the Tero Ranta dry cell plans are free and provide a lot of good info.
Tero Ranta dry cell plans (Free)

Good Luck!

RealtyRoy-HHO Scambuster
http://pmgen.com/hhoscambusters/

2002 Dodge Durango SLT 4.7
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1964 Chev Impala SS 409 My baby!

A day is a day but the day I save gas is a good day!!
(This post was last modified: 12-24-2008 01:15 PM by realtyroy.)
12-24-2008 09:23 AM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #8
RE: not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
Dry Cells Rule! There simply isn't anything else, save for sealed series wet cells. And that means; no bricks. (plate clusters)
12-25-2008 01:26 AM
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JET USA Offline
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Post: #9
RE: not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
Hello "onewingman"
I know how it is to build a cell that conducts too heavy and gets too hot.
My first cell was 7 plates aranged in the order [neg-pos-neg-pos-neg-pos-neg].
I soon found that I had to change the arangement to accomodate the lower cell space voltage.
Ok, I agree that the above information is correct about voltage and spacing.
However, my opinion is, the need to wrap the cell with some shrink wrap is not as necessary
because electric current will take the shortest path, and that is the distance
between the plates through the water. Higher than 3v per space makes too much heat.
Once you have constructed the cell and container, Another method to control the current
is to use a method of pulse modulation. Switching the power on and off; controling
the duty cycle timing of the power, A "PWM". {A DC Motor speed control device}
One other thing. Make sure that all connections are tight. Any resistance will generate heat
and will cause failure of the container and insulating materials, plastic, rubber, etc.
I have posted pictures of my projects at http://waterworks4fuel.com/pictures.html
JT

http://Jet-USA.com
"Those who say" " It cannot be done"
"should get out of the way of those who are doing it"[/size][/align]
(This post was last modified: 12-25-2008 11:08 AM by JET USA.)
12-25-2008 10:55 AM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #10
RE: not enuf hydrogen, too many amps...
You're right on, Jet, in all but one thing:
"However, my opinion is, the need to wrap the cell with some shrink wrap is not as necessary
because electric current will take the shortest path, and that is the distance
between the plates through the water"
All the way back to the Smack PDF and beyond, we've had ample evidence of the current leakage of a brick. And that is proven out by the wrapping of said brick that eliminates many of these stray currents and heat. What you said there is true in the instance of sealed series cells or dry cells where the current has no other place to go but the next plate. Electic did plenty of experimenting and came up with wrapping also...until he discovered dry cells. Guess what he sells NOW?
12-25-2008 05:25 PM
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