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restricting dry cell current leaks
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benny Offline
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Post: #21
RE: restricting dry cell current leaks
(03-11-2009 06:25 AM)mtnhillsman Wrote:  
(03-10-2009 01:03 PM)abe Wrote:  Have you tried gasket material they sale at Lowe's for shower pans.They are around 1/32 I think. With thiner gaskets you dont need as much eletrolite to pull amps. buy dont go to high are you'll run hot. I to am running a mod "tero" cell also,only a dioman patern. I also droped one nutral plate to 5 now. I get better out put now at lower amps

I'm going to give that a shot next. This really sucks that i need thinner gaskets, i had 60 gaskets cut from a rubber manufacturer so i would have a nice clean look, my 8x8x1's were 3.15 each, not too bad but i had to order alot, i figured id have enough for several cells.... Anybody wanna buy some gaskets for some in-efficient dry cells??? C'mon...In-efficiency is the new Efficiency these days...

The only other thing i found was that the quality of the battery charger can come into play. Mine is very OLD...and its been overloaded a few times, i have a 75 amp IOTA coming so im going to hold off on the new gaskets until i verify its not the charger.


I wouldn't dump your gaskets just yet.

There is a school of thought that anything upward of 5mm plate spacing (gasket thickness) is desirable. There is the opposite school of thought that gasket thickness of about 3mm is optimum.
A lot also depends on other variables, such as generator design, electrolyte strength, etc.
Experiment with what you have available before making any drastic changes.
Also take any advice from Zipstor with a very large pinch of salt.
Zipstor went from absolute novice, to genius status, on HHO generation, within a couple of weeks, purely by looking around the web and posting pictures of anything that 'looked nice', and usually accompanied by the question 'What do you think of this'. As I said. Pure 'genius'.

Mind you. The line between genius and idiot is a very fine line indeed. So maybe I've figured him out all wrong. Nah.

As for battery charger use, these mostly are not intended for constant high current output. Most are designed for trickle charge only. Some have a boost function for rapid charge, or motor start, but even these are usually not intended for long-term high current use, unless you are willing pay a heffla lot of your hard-earned for one which can.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2009 06:59 AM by benny.)
03-11-2009 06:53 AM
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mtnhillsman Offline
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Post: #22
RE: restricting dry cell current leaks
(03-11-2009 06:53 AM)benny Wrote:  I wouldn't dump your gaskets just yet.

There is a school of thought that anything upward of 5mm plate spacing (gasket thickness) is desirable. There is the opposite school of thought that gasket thickness of about 3mm is optimum.
A lot also depends on other variables, such as generator design, electrolyte strength, etc.
Experiment with what you have available before making any drastic changes.
Also take any advice from Zipstor with a very large pinch of salt.
Zipstor went from absolute novice, to genius status, on HHO generation, within a couple of weeks, purely by looking around the web and posting pictures of anything that 'looked nice', and usually accompanied by the question 'What do you think of this'. As I said. Pure 'genius'.

Mind you. The line between genius and idiot is a very fine line indeed. So maybe I've figured him out all wrong. Nah.

As for battery charger use, these mostly are not intended for constant high current output. Most are designed for trickle charge only. Some have a boost function for rapid charge, or motor start, but even these are usually not intended for long-term high current use, unless you are willing pay a heffla lot of your hard-earned for one which can.

I just bought a 75 amp IOTA on ebay for 155, overstock unit with no manufacturer warranty, 90 day return policy from the seller. I had just purchased a bubbler from Smack and asked him a couple things, he mentioned, "The charger and batt health do make a big difference in your MMW readings. I found that out last year."

I'm hoping the new charger will help, ill see what my efficiencies are off the alternator once my ammeter and other electrical stuff is done.

Obviously a wider spacing the current needs to jump farther. I do recall reading in a series cell design, "you need to keep your electrolyte strength strong, a full solution of 28% since the electrolyte is the only thing carrying the current" Dry cells are the same idea, so maybe the thinner spacing are allowing higher efficiencies with the weaker solutions people need in order to keep temps down. I'm going to expiment with the new charger and strong electrolyte and see if it affects efficiency at all.
03-11-2009 08:22 AM
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benny Offline
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Post: #23
RE: restricting dry cell current leaks
(03-11-2009 08:22 AM)mtnhillsman Wrote:  
(03-11-2009 06:53 AM)benny Wrote:  I wouldn't dump your gaskets just yet.

There is a school of thought that anything upward of 5mm plate spacing (gasket thickness) is desirable. There is the opposite school of thought that gasket thickness of about 3mm is optimum.
A lot also depends on other variables, such as generator design, electrolyte strength, etc.
Experiment with what you have available before making any drastic changes.
Also take any advice from Zipstor with a very large pinch of salt.
Zipstor went from absolute novice, to genius status, on HHO generation, within a couple of weeks, purely by looking around the web and posting pictures of anything that 'looked nice', and usually accompanied by the question 'What do you think of this'. As I said. Pure 'genius'.

Mind you. The line between genius and idiot is a very fine line indeed. So maybe I've figured him out all wrong. Nah.

As for battery charger use, these mostly are not intended for constant high current output. Most are designed for trickle charge only. Some have a boost function for rapid charge, or motor start, but even these are usually not intended for long-term high current use, unless you are willing pay a heffla lot of your hard-earned for one which can.

I just bought a 75 amp IOTA on ebay for 155, overstock unit with no manufacturer warranty, 90 day return policy from the seller. I had just purchased a bubbler from Smack and asked him a couple things, he mentioned, "The charger and batt health do make a big difference in your MMW readings. I found that out last year."

I'm hoping the new charger will help, ill see what my efficiencies are off the alternator once my ammeter and other electrical stuff is done.

Obviously a wider spacing the current needs to jump farther. I do recall reading in a series cell design, "you need to keep your electrolyte strength strong, a full solution of 28% since the electrolyte is the only thing carrying the current" Dry cells are the same idea, so maybe the thinner spacing are allowing higher efficiencies with the weaker solutions people need in order to keep temps down. I'm going to expiment with the new charger and strong electrolyte and see if it affects efficiency at all.

I'm not keen on using a battery/'charger combinations for the reasons I gave earlier. The battery usually ends up doing the brunt of the work, and motor batteries are not designed for deep discharge. Let them discharge too much and you stand a good chance of screwing same. That's one reason I rolled my own PSU from spares (scrap bin). Worst that can happen is that I either need to replace a fuse, or get another part from the junk pile.

Personally I try to have a solution strength that will give me, from cold, the maximum current I want to draw, with a connection straight from whatever power source I am using to the HHO generator, then insert and use a PWM to control the current for when the unit starts to heat to working temp. Is a bit fiddly to set up at first, but when you have done it once, you get a good idea of solution strength required for next change of same.
Use of full strength electrolyte, at least for vehicle use, normally requires a PWM in any case, otherwise thermal runaway is almost an absolute certainty.

Let us know how you get on.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2009 09:43 AM by benny.)
03-11-2009 09:30 AM
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mtnhillsman Offline
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Post: #24
RE: restricting dry cell current leaks
(03-11-2009 09:30 AM)benny Wrote:  I'm not keen on using a battery/'charger combinations for the reasons I gave earlier. The battery usually ends up doing the brunt of the work, and motor batteries are not designed for deep discharge. Let them discharge too much and you stand a good chance of screwing same. That's one reason I rolled my own PSU from spares (scrap bin). Worst that can happen is that I either need to replace a fuse, or get another part from the junk pile.

Personally I try to have a solution strength that will give me, from cold, the maximum current I want to draw, with a connection straight from whatever power source I am using to the HHO generator, then insert and use a PWM to control the current for when the unit starts to heat to working temp. Is a bit fiddly to set up at first, but when you have done it once, you get a good idea of solution strength required for next change of same.
Use of full strength electrolyte, at least for vehicle use, normally requires a PWM in any case, otherwise thermal runaway is almost an absolute certainty.

Let us know how you get on.

I fully agree full strength solution will cause the temp to runaway. Im talking completely from an efficiency standpoint. I plan to crank out several of these cells after i work out the bugs for a few different vehicles and in one case will need 12 lpm. Thats why im so determined on optimizing for efficiency, my current setup in my Altima that inefficiency only costs me about 7 amps, multiply the output and its going to cost me about 30-40 amps over the massive amount of power ill already need to generate 12 lpm.

If i run the charger off a battery in the vehicle it will definitely be a deep cycle. However, i agree, long term abuse of any battery is just going to wear it out. the idea is however to test different vehicles with 1 set of equipment, if i find the mileage gains are worthwhile i can then look toward an upgraded alternator if the cost is justified.

Ill post the results on this cell when i figure out how to get the efficiency up.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2009 10:45 AM by mtnhillsman.)
03-11-2009 10:40 AM
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benny Offline
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Post: #25
RE: restricting dry cell current leaks
(03-11-2009 10:40 AM)mtnhillsman Wrote:  in one case will need 12 lpm.

That's a lot of HHO. What are you driving that requires that amount of HHO?
03-11-2009 11:25 AM
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mtnhillsman Offline
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Post: #26
RE: restricting dry cell current leaks
(03-11-2009 11:25 AM)benny Wrote:  
(03-11-2009 10:40 AM)mtnhillsman Wrote:  in one case will need 12 lpm.

That's a lot of HHO. What are you driving that requires that amount of HHO?


35 foot Motor home. Ford 460 engine, i think its 7.something liters. Gets 6 mpg towing a car....
03-11-2009 12:24 PM
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benny Offline
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Post: #27
RE: restricting dry cell current leaks
(03-11-2009 12:24 PM)mtnhillsman Wrote:  
(03-11-2009 11:25 AM)benny Wrote:  
(03-11-2009 10:40 AM)mtnhillsman Wrote:  in one case will need 12 lpm.

That's a lot of HHO. What are you driving that requires that amount of HHO?


35 foot Motor home. Ford 460 engine, i think its 7.something liters. Gets 6 mpg towing a car....

Big engine.
Figures bandied about for HHO per litre engine capacity range from 0.5 to 1 lpm per engine litre. Yoiu might not require that volume of HHO.
Then again, you might.
Have you thought of towing the motorhome with the car. Just might get better mileage. Big Grin
03-11-2009 12:36 PM
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mtnhillsman Offline
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Post: #28
RE: restricting dry cell current leaks
(03-11-2009 12:36 PM)benny Wrote:  Big engine.
Figures bandied about for HHO per litre engine capacity range from 0.5 to 1 lpm per engine litre. Yoiu might not require that volume of HHO.
Then again, you might.
Have you thought of towing the motorhome with the car. Just might get better mileage. Big Grin

I've thought of it all...I know the "rule of thumb" but engine load seems to play a big factor too, if you have a small car, 1.8 liter, small load, yeah, 1lpm should be fine, take the same car with alot of load and your pushing twice as much air through the engine, thats kinda what happens in the motorhome, the thing weighs like 12,000 lbs, GCVWR is 18K, and believe me all that weight, that 460 is struggleing to maintain 65 at even a slight uphill...
03-11-2009 12:52 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #29
RE: restricting dry cell current leaks
Same principal with gasoline and hho... large, heavy vehicles need more gasoline and more hho.

If someone was enterprising, I suspect the amount of hho needed (in LPM) could be easily calculated from the gas used (GPH) in the vehicle.

Rick

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(This post was last modified: 03-11-2009 03:22 PM by colchiro.)
03-11-2009 03:20 PM
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