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savefuel.ca?
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Gintaras Offline
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Post: #1
savefuel.ca?
Has anyone tried a generator from
http://www.savefuel.ca/hydrogen/products.php?id=product ? I wanted to try their product but since they didn't answer to single of my three letters (including one about EFIE) I'm in doubt. Besides, they offer to use potassium in their electrolyte which is highly corrosive material...

I see no one here likes to reccomend any supplemental hydrogene device. Perhaps someone could share what device he/she has tried and share his/her opinion about quality and service.
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2008 07:39 AM by Gintaras.)
03-17-2008 07:38 AM
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mike Offline
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RE: savefuel.ca?
I'm not familiar with the devices from that site. But no communication is, of course, a bad sign. I've put in an email service ticket with them, to get a good email address for you. Their devices look OK to me, and are reasonably priced.

I'm building a HyZor from eagle-research.com. It's their name for their Brown's gas generator. The plans to build your own are $22. You can also buy a kit with all the parts that you assemble. I don't believe you can buy an assembled unit, however. I like these units because they are designed to produce a high percentage of brown's gas, which is superior to normal hydrogen and oxygen. If you're not familiar with this concept see my article here.

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03-17-2008 10:53 AM
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65sohc Offline
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RE: savefuel.ca?
Gintaras Wrote:Has anyone tried a generator from
http://www.savefuel.ca/hydrogen/products.php?id=product ? I wanted to try their product but since they didn't answer to single of my three letters (including one about EFIE) I'm in doubt. Besides, they offer to use potassium in their electrolyte which is highly corrosive material...

I see no one here likes to reccomend any supplemental hydrogene device. Perhaps someone could share what device he/she has tried and share his/her opinion about quality and service.

Funny you should bring this up. Just today I received a reply from savefuel.ca. Below I have pasted my question and their reply:


02 sensors

My question: "There are, as you know, dozens of websites offering devices similar to yours. Several of them indicate that on a modern car if the O2 sensor reads more oxygen in the exhaust it will interpret this as a lean condition and add more gas, thus nullifying the potential savings of the oxy-hydrogen. They say you must add a device, such as the EFIE, to fool the ECU and allow the engine to run leaner. How do you respond to this?"

The response: "When you are driving down the highway at 3000 rpm, you're putting in thousands of cubic feet of air per minute into your engine. Now putting an oxy-hydrogen unit into the air intake will give you approximately 50 L of hydrogen per hour. Which is 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen. So you are putting in 17 L of extra air into your engine, 17 divided by 60 min. =0.283 L extra oxygen. And the 02 also gets combusted.
What 02 sensors can read that?
We concentrate on HH0 units, we do not want you to spend another $60.00 for something you do not need.
Hope this Helps
Thanks
John"

What I find interesting is that this person seems to have no clue as to the function of an oxygen sensor, apparently thinking that it measures O2 in the intake air.
03-17-2008 09:03 PM
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mike Offline
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RE: savefuel.ca?
This is a new field and not everyone in it knows all there is to know (including me, unfortunately). His first point is correct. The oxygen being introduced will not affect the sensor's readings. But he apparently doesn't realize that the catalytic effect of HHO on the petrol will produce a cleaner exhaust that the computer will read as being "too lean".

I have put in an email to them this weekend. Perhaps I can convey some understandings on the subject. I also hope to find out more about their product. I'm mostly interested in the amount of Brown's gas is being produced compared to H2 and O2.

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03-17-2008 09:13 PM
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Gintaras Offline
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RE: savefuel.ca?
Does HyZor use potassium in electrolyte?

mike Wrote:I'm not familiar with the devices from that site. But no communication is, of course, a bad sign. I've put in an email service ticket with them, to get a good email address for you. Their devices look OK to me, and are reasonably priced.

I'm building a HyZor from eagle-research.com. It's their name for their Brown's gas generator. The plans to build your own are $22. You can also buy a kit with all the parts that you assemble. I don't believe you can buy an assembled unit, however. I like these units because they are designed to produce a high percentage of brown's gas, which is superior to normal hydrogen and oxygen. If you're not familiar with this concept see my article here.
03-17-2008 10:20 PM
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mike Offline
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RE: savefuel.ca?
It recommends sodium hydroxide for it's electrolyte.

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03-17-2008 10:57 PM
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HydroGenX Offline
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Post: #7
RE: savefuel.ca?
Gintaras,

I apologize for our failure to contact you. Please do use the ticket system at http://www.savefuel.ca/support Email is simply not reliable enough.

I am the founder of http://www.savefuel.ca, and as such will remain as unbiased as I can be.

Deciding what HHO generator is right for you depends on a few factors.
Are you able to build your own, do you have the know-how, you can assemble one using the free plans in our ebook.

The units from Eagle-research are good, no question, however they are not easy to assemble. I have no experience with the longevity of them.

The reason we added the 100% Stainless steel HHO Generators to our hydrogen generator line-up 3 years ago is because in testing we were able to run the for over 48 hour continues with no adverse affect, and at the current time I have almost 90.000 miles on that original model. It is still, today, supplying supplemental hydrogen to my 2003 F-250 6.0 diesel test platform.

Most sites have not have not been around that long, let alone test a unit for that period.

Best Regards,
Jaco
Founder
http://www.savefuel.ca

P.S. In regards to the EFIE comment from John to the other user, that has been addressed and was the result of a long day answering 100's of support tickets. lol
My apologies.

Gintaras Wrote:Has anyone tried a generator from
http://www.savefuel.ca/hydrogen/products.php?id=product ? I wanted to try their product but since they didn't answer to single of my three letters (including one about EFIE) I'm in doubt. Besides, they offer to use potassium in their electrolyte which is highly corrosive material...

I see no one here likes to recommend any supplemental hydrogen device. Perhaps someone could share what device he/she has tried and share his/her opinion about quality and service.
03-24-2008 07:50 PM
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mike Offline
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RE: savefuel.ca?
Hi Jaco,

Welcome to the forum! And feel free to tout your product here. I have no problem with someone being proud of their product, and it's OK to discuss it's merits.

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03-24-2008 08:51 PM
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djrowan Offline
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Post: #9
RE: savefuel.ca?
I am really stoked about this forum. Mike- you seem really knowledgeable and fast to respond to threads. I hope I can get some support in solving my problems with my current HHO system here.

I have a 2003 Nissan Murano. I bought an HHO unit (SL-50) from Savfuel.ca about 10 months ago, and after some initial tests with the unit running at the specified ~10 amps, I found very little difference in my gas mileage. I was frustrated about having spent close to $1000 on the unit and installation, and found that it was apparently doing nothing to improve my mileage (mileage was worse- it seemed).

I tried to get in touch with the savefuel folks, and they did respond, but i ended up finding no solution for my failing setup. I subsequently turned it off for several months and have only recently decided to try and get it working again.

One problem that I had initially was that after it was installed and filled up (with water and catalyst), as soon as I switched it on, the check engine light (!), and the alternator light (battery image) turned on. The mechanic who installed it suggested that it was because the computer would sense any minor fluctuation in the electrical balance and assume something was wrong. From the mileage performance, I thought that perhaps the engine was trying to compensate for the higher load on the alternator, and running the engine a bit faster to generate more electricity. (i'm pretty novice at mechanics and automobile repair stuff)

After Jaco forwarded me the links to your EFIE site, I was simultaneouslyf frustrated and happy... frustrated because I thought that information about oxygen sensors was essential knowledge for someone buying an HHO unit and installing it on a newer car- and happy because it might be the missing link for me.

Could it be that my vehicle would respond to an EFIE and it would make the HHO gas actually help my car's performance?

I really hope someone can help me! It would be great if I could get this working.. definitely would be more enthused to promote this kind of rig to my friends/family if I knew it actually works!

thanks
rowan
03-24-2008 11:27 PM
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mike Offline
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RE: savefuel.ca?
10 Amps is a lot to add to an alternator, they may not have that much extra capacity. If you're regularly getting an alternator light when running your HHO rig, then your alternator doesn't have the capacity for that much extra juice. Your choices are to run your rig at less amps, or replace the alternator with one that has the capacity.

I don't know how efficient those electrolysers are, but 10 amps seems like an awful lot anyway for a Mazda. How big is your engine?

There's some basic math you should understand on HHO generation. It costs you gas mileage to generate HHO. The amp draw on your alternator puts a counter force on your engine that gas and horsepower have to compensate for. When you burn the HHO, you do not get anywhere near the energy back that you expended to make it. This is because you have several energy conversions going on, none of which is 100% efficient, and therefore you lose energy every step of the way. The conversions are engine rotation (mechanical) to electrical (alternator); electrical to chemical (hydrolyser); chemical to mechanical (when the HHO burns). If that was all there was to the equation you'd lose mileage for every liter of HHO you created.

The way you gain in efficiency is the fact that the HHO catalyzes the gasoline and makes it burn more completely. Before your modifications the gas is being burned so inefficiently that there's huge amounts of $ in wasted gas being blown out your exhaust pipes. The HHO causes an increase in the burn efficiency of the petrol. It's only a small increase in efficiency too. But that increase is way more than the cost of making the HHO. That's where you gain in fuel mileage. I've heard of up to 50% gains in fuel mileage with HHO when the engine is properly tuned for it. Even higher when combined with other devices.

But there's a trick to it. Only so much HHO will actually improve the efficiency of the petrol combustion. More HHO after that point will not further increase it. So any additional HHO generated above and beyond that point will be wasted, and will start to cause you to lose mpg. If you make twice as much HHO as you need for optimum combustion, you may be back where you started again.

So, that's why I'm concerned about possibly making too much HHO. 10 amps seems like a lot for a Mazda. But I'm not expert in the HHO field. I just know the theory as described above. It's food for thought anyway. Note that if there's no other way to adjust the current of your HHO, you can just reduce the amount of catalyst until you get to the amount of gas you want to make. But the supplier of your HHO should be consulted about all of this as he'll know more about what's best for your situation.

As to whether my EFIE will be the answer? You for sure have to be able to run your HHO without throwing an alternator light. And you have to have the type of vehicle that needs an EFIE. You can check out my Documents page. In particular read What Do I Need To Know About My Oxygen Sensor?. But if your car has fuel injection and you do nothing to handle the oxygen sensors, you will get poor results with an HHO. Some folks have reported getting worse mileage before using EFIEs with cars such as these.

Another doc to check out is Tuning For Mileage by mpgmike. This article goes into a little more depth the tuning that you can do to get successful results with an HHO unit.

Good luck.

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03-25-2008 03:35 AM
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