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Full Version: Winter Sol Test1: Naoh + Alcohol SLX: HHO prod & Freeze points. Toxic vapors found!
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Many of the solutions recommended on forums for winter down to 15F, I have found really freeze at about 25F. Regardless, I really want to get down to about 5F. This first test of 1 part denatured alcohol SLX to 3 parts solution was chosen because first tests with just water and alcohol maintained a thick viscous liquid (liquid temp -6) after 48 hours in a Freezer that averages 3F. (The freezer cycles between -6 and 8 at this setting) BTW, I know that the test generator is not efficient so please don't comment on that. I am just trying to get ratios and relationships established. I can work on efficiency later. I also need to find a different freezing agent or mix. This experiment caused toxic fumes that caused me to immediately abort the experiment during the freeze tests and may have screwed up my freezer. It is really difficult to do columns in forem format so the headers are somewhat criptic. They are as follows:

Vol: Total Volume of the electrolyte
Elapse: Total run time of the generator in hours and minutes.
Temp: Electrolyte temperature / Ambient air temperature
Amp: you ought to get that one.
V: Volts
Time: Amount taken to produce 100ml HHO gas.
Gas Vol: Amount of gas produced.

Code:
Test 1                        
(10 teas NaOH / 2ltr H2O.  No Alcohol, Output gas: HHO)    

    
Vol      Elapse    Temp    Amp    V    time    Gas vol
ml     h:mm    Sol/Air                m:ss    output
                        
950    0:00    70/62     18.3    4.41    0:28    100ml
950    0:10    82/62     19.5    4.35    0:26    100ml
950    0:20    91/62     20.7    4.3    0:26    100ml
950    0:30    102/62    22.2    4.25    0:24    100ml
950    1:00    130/63    25.1    4.12    0:22    100ml

Test 2                        
(10 teas NaOH / 2ltr H2O.  3 parts to 1 part Denatured Alcohol SLX, Output gas: HHO)                        
                        
Vol    Elapse    Temp    Amp    V      time    Gas vol    
ml      h:mm    Sol/Air                m:ss         
                            
950    0:00    69/60     11.6    4.65    0:51    100ml    
950    0:10    77/60     12.3    4.61    0:49    100ml    
950    0:20    85/60     13.2    4.56    0:45    100ml    
950    0:30    93/60     14.1    4.52    0:44    100ml    
950    1:00    128/61    17.7    4.35    0:41    100ml    
950    1:30    153/62    19.5    4.27    0:38    100ml

Observations:
Test 1
System ran clear up to the 1:00 observation. At this point there might have begun a slight development of rust bloom but was so small it was hardly verifiable. Bubbles ignited in the expected manner of a highly energetic cracking pop.

Test 2
At lower amps (5 to 6) in a previous test I discovered that the bubbles barely light or act like H2 only. In this test, at 11.6 amps the bubbles act more like HHO but are not as robust. There was no evidence of bloom. At 14.1 amps bubbles ignite like HHO. Solution still clear. At 17.7 amps bubble ignition has returned to an H2 behavior. Solution was starting to turn slightly yellow. At 19.5 amps bubbles ignite like H2 or slower. Solution turned to very dark cloudy rust color. Unlike traditional bloom, nothing settles out nor are particulates visible to the naked eye or with a magnifying glass. It appears to be a color change at the solution level. The acrylic container has been permanently stained yellow orange and the gas exit tubes started to yellow as well.

Conclusions: Not only does the alcohol reduce efficiency of HHO production, but it does so in two ways. It has long been known that the introduction will immediately impede the amp flow of any solution. But it also reduces the production of gas at the corresponding amp level as compared to a solution with no alcohol (e.g. 10 amps with no Alcohol produces more HHO than 10amps with alcohol). Temperature behaviors where nearly identical between the two mixtures until the last two observations. The Test 2 mixture accelerated its temperature increase considerably. This also roughly occurred at the time the solution exhibited an unknown chemical change. Overall, the composition of the gas produced is erratic, shifting its behavior, and significantly changed. This might have a dramatic effect on MPG tests and engine operation relative to an engine running a summer mix with no alcohol.

Freezing tests
The above used electrolyte, which had been electrolysized for 2 1/2 hours and a fresh non-used identical mix was placed in the freezer set to average 3F.
Code:
Elapse T    Sol Temp    Sol Temp    Desc
H:MM         Fresh       Used    
0:00         70            67         liquid
1:00         39            40         liquid
8:00         8             12         liquid
11:10        7             10         liquid
Observations: Experiment aborted due to toxic fumes. Both test solutions remained completely liquid at temps recorded above. I had noticed that the combination of NaOH and SLX alcohol produced a strong vapor smell but my exposure to that was minimal during this whole series of tests quite purposely. That is until the last freeze observation. I purposely left the freezer open to air it out and that’s when the vapors quite quickly (with in a few breaths of them) caused me to become light headed and flushed. I immediately opened all doors to ventilate the house and disposed of the material in the garage with open doors. I have since re-vented the freezer and house again. The freezer/frig still has a residual odor and I have thrown away all containers that have absorbed the odor. (BTW it was 29F outside so I was taking this quite seriously!)

Conclusions: “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread” and I ain’t no angel! I have no idea if the toxic fumes were from the used solution or fresh or both. I have done freeze tests on Naoh + H2O and denatured alcohol SLX + H2O and never experienced any problems with vapors. I suspect it is the combination of SLX and Naoh but I can’t say for certain. It could be just the electrolyzed solution. However, I am not going to find out. One such experience is enough! I think I might look into more natural substances for a winter blend like vodka and vinegar. Or any thing you guys might suggest.

The freeze tests do conclude that the mixture of SLX and NaOH easily remain fully liquid for 11 1/2 hours. What is also suggested is that the electrolyzed solution was behaving in a manor suggesting alcohol evaporation but this is not conclusive. (I am hoping that Finallyme or jjb weigh in since they seem to be more trained in chemistry.) I suggest this because in my many freeze tests, I have noticed that what ever I freeze seems to rush down to a temp point and then slowly reduce a degree or two until it begins some form of transformation into a solid state. If this is normal behavior for liquids, then this freeze test suggests that 2 1/2 hours of operation increased the freezing point of the used electrolyte by 3-4 degrees. This might give some clues as to the evaporation rate of alcohol in an electrolyzed system. Or at least it is something I will keep an eye on in the future. This assumes I don’t asphyxiate myself in the process. Any comments or observations about the above data or suggestions for hopefully safer blends to test are appreciated.
Well here's an update. I appears as if this lovely test has also ruined the electrodes. I can't repeat the production levels with fresh no alcohol Naoh mix. At the same amps, I am producing 30% less HHO. Also, my anode (+) is now over heating even though I have check and super tighened all the connections. I have no idea if it is related to the debacle of the test or something else that has screwed up. I am trying to run it on 3.3 v for a few hours to see if I can condition the junk off the electrodes but it's looking like I am going to have to do a new build.Sad
Update: I ran the anodes for several hours at low voltage and changing the elyte. Someone also suggested I reverse the polarity of the anodes and did that for a half hour or so. The anodes seem back to their previous production levels so the mess didn't permenantly damage them. The anode overheating seems to be unrelated to the test. I rebuilt a new top to the test generator and it seems to be working fine. The old top was mostly a mountain of goop to cover up a bad design with my first attempt. So it finally failed.

Today I'll be testing windshield fluid and post the results in a new thread.
whats wrong with methonol? i ran it in summer, i noticed nothing different from the norm.
howiemandel Wrote:whats wrong with methonol? i ran it in summer, i noticed nothing different from the norm.

Hi Howie,
Long time since we've chatted. Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving. Is methanol the same as methyl used in windshield washer fluid? I tried finding methanol at home depot, loews etc and couldn't find it. So I thought I would try some of the other suggestions I've read about out there. SLX is a bust. Too dangerous. I am now testing rubbing alcohol and windsheild fluid.
I looked for methanol in washer fluid as was stated by some, but couldn't find it yet. I can't think of any solution except maybe Heet that has it. But that's getting expensive.
I thought Heet used to have isopropanol (of course it's been a long time since I looked at a can).

Methanol or methyl alcohol, should be the same thing.

According to Wikipedia:
Anti-freeze, or methylated spirits, may be added to a mixture to give the product a lower freezing temperature. But, methanol is harmful when breathed in, so more popular now is an ethanol winter mix, e.g. PAV, water, ethanol (or isopropanol), and ethylene glycol.

I suspect it's going to get harder to find sources for methanol. Wikipedia
Well, the windshield washer fluids that I have found all say "methyl alcohol" + water. They don't tell you the ratios but I am using the down to -20F type so I am hoping they all use about the same ratios. As I type, I am running a four hour test and then putting it, and an unused winter mix into the freezor which averages 5F. I'll then do a 12-18 hour freeze test followed by another 1 hour run test. This might give us an idea of evaporation rates. Or maybe not. So far the mix has held up to 153F and 22 amps (remained clear) unlike the SLX disaster! The freeze test is using the 4 hour run solution at about 7 amps and I am guessing at a high of about a 115F. We shall see! I'll post when I get results.
There's a VLT additive for washer solution, I remember it as being a bright red container and good for sub zero temps. I wonder what's in that?
http://www.chemicalregister.com/Methyl_A...id8581.htm
http://www.thomex.com/ebrochures/sd-fine...thanol.htm
http://www.cqconcepts.com/
http://www.hvchemical.com/
A quick gooogle and I find tons of stuff made overseas and just a few USA suppliers. I'm not even sure about the last two.
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